

Lyon 3 - 1 River Plate
By: Inara | July 19th, 2007!!!!!!!!!!!
That was the best Lyon game I’ve seen in a long time. And to think it was only a friendly!
River Plate only needed a draw to go through while Lyon not only needed to win, but in the event that Reading won their match against Shimizu S-Pulse, they would have to score more than the English side (Reading won 1-0).
The game was absolutely fabulous, exciting from the first minute until the last minute of stoppage time. No team sat back in their own halves - it was just attack, attack, attack!!! If Lyon wasn’t hammering River Plate’s goal, River Plate was hammering Lyon’s. Though I think part of the reason for the strong attacking quality to the game was because both teams were crap defensively, so I suppose the mindset was that since they couldn’t handle the ball in their own half, it was better to take it into the other half.
There was drama, with quite a bit of fouls called and cards given out. One of Benzema’s goals were disallowed because it was offside, and as the players grew more desperate, the fouls became more dangerous, one of which eventually led to an expulsion. Benzema, by the way, nearly got into a fistfight with one of River Plate’s defenders.
All in all, it was a great game. I didn’t get up to leave once, and normally I have the attention span of a three year old. It was so worth waking up at seven in the morning to watch this. Despite Lyon missing so many of their regulars, Alain Perrin had Lyon put on a performance that the side has been missing for a long time. Let’s hope it’s not a fluke but a sign of things to come.
Goals: Lyon (Benzema 6, Ben Arfa 24, Källström 90), River Plate (Ruben 13)
Cards: Lyon (Govou 9, Belhadj 38, Toulalan 60), River Plate (Fernandez 31 and 80 - RED, Martinez 92)
Edit: I stole this from Christian at the River Plate Offside. Here is a compiled highlight video (view the original selection of clips here).
Tactics:
Coupet
Clerc - Bodmer - Muller - Belhadj
Govou - Toulalan - Kallstrom - Ben Arfa
Benzema - Baros
That’s a different lineup than the one I posted yesterday, but Perrin was obliged to make last minute changes. Right before the match, the referee disqualified Kader Keita and Anthony Reveillere from participating because of their injuries (though to be fair, both Keita and Reveillere were allowed to play with bandages against Reading). That meant that an out of form Milan Baros and a very tired Nadir Belhadj had no choice but to play.
Defense: Lyon’s chances looked really bleak thanks to their mounting injuries. With a defense consisting of two non-defensive fullbacks, a midfielder, and Lyon’s third choice center back, it was left to Gregory Coupet to keep Lyon in the game - which he did! Man of the match for me, with save after save. He literally carried Lyon on his back for large stretches of the game.

The official caption for this pic is “Good looking. Good skills. Good manner. Just Perfect!!”
Francois Clerc was average this match. He was fortunate that most of River Plate’s attacks went down Lyon’s left, so Clerc wasn’t exposed as often as he would have been otherwise. With Clerc, the ability is there, he just needs to be more decisive. There are some moments in a match where it’s obvious he can’t decide to go forward or stay back, so he ends up giving the ball away. As for LB Nadir Belhadj, he was exhausted. His game today lacked his usual flair, and he game the ball away quite stupidly during some moments. He played the full 90 minutes for the past three games - I don’t know how he’s going to play in the final since it looks like Fabio Grosso might have to sit out once again.
The Mathieu Bodmer - Patrick Muller pairing was cringe worthy, and I think it was Bodmer who was mostly responsible for River Plate’s goal. Sometimes it felt like Coupet was a third CB to back them up. Muller was also tired, like Belhadj, he’s played 90 minutes in all three games so far, and he will have to play against Bolton since there is no back up for him. Sandy Paillot eventually replaced him in the last ten minutes, so it was hard to tell just how good Paillot is. I’m undecided as to whether I prefer Bodmer or Paillot as fourth choice CB.
Midfield: This is where Lyon dominated. Jeremy Toulalan and Kim Kallstrom played in the middle, with Toulalan playing more defensively and Kallstrom slightly more offensively. After a year of seeing them in a 4-3-3, I’m now thinking a 4-4-2 with them in the middle might be better. They were tireless and were the stops in River Plate’s attacking engine. They also seemed to share a good understanding with each other - no miscommunication between them. If both Kallstrom and Toulalan hang around, I cannot wait to see how their pairing turns out. Kallstrom scored Lyon’s penalty as well, showing us why he’s Sweden’s penalty taker instead of Zlatan the Great.

Kongo Kim strikes again.
Perrin placed Sidney Govou and Hatem Ben Arfa on the wings. Everyone here knows my feelings on Govou, so I won’t make any snide comments about him. He came close to scoring once or twice, and he constantly hounded the opposition. I just wish he would be more effective once he had the ball. But that’s just me. But it was a good game by him. It will be interesting to see Govou and Keita competing throughout the year. As for Ben Arfa, he had a good match, highlighted by the understanding he shares with his teammates. He was dispossessed frequently and relies on his speed to get past opponents since he can’t outmuscle them. He also scored one of the goals today.

Screw Trez. We have Benz.
Attack: I thought that Milan Baros played slightly behind Karim Benzema, as a sort of secondary striker (thereby taking on the role that Keita was supposed to have played today). While Baros hasn’t scored yet, he’s a large reason that Lyon had any possession at all in River Plate’s half. Unlike Benzema, Ben Arfa, and Govou, Baros doesn’t lose the ball easily and is strong enough to bulldoze through his opponents. His presence allows Benzema to shine (it’s looking more like Baros is taking the Shevchenko role). Baros was replaced by Loic Remy, whose only contribution to the game was to win Lyon a penalty, which Kallstrom took. Benzema was replaced with Alou Diarra, which reverted Lyon back to a 4-3-3. Perrin did that to strengthen Lyon’s shoddy defenses and keep their lead safe.
River Plate: Hihihihihi.
I was really impressed by Radamel Falcao. He fought until the last second of stoppage time and was their most dangerous player, more so than Fernando Belluschi, who is River Plate’s danger man. If Falcao were Brazilian, I would email Bernard Lacombe and tell him to buy him right this instant. He wasn’t that great at finishing, as he missed some easy chances, but A) he had Coupet standing in his way, B) he was a pain in the ass, and C) since when do Lyon’s strikers actually score?
Next up is the final against Bolton, which promises the be a very tough match, as physical, defensive sides are the ones Lyon have problems playing against. The game will be Satuday morning at 4 AM ET (10 AM in France). I’ll have more on that later.
Unfortunately, Toulalan may have picked up an injury and will probably be out against Bolton. Since Alou Diarra has just finalized his transfer to Bordeaux, we might end up seeing Fabio Santos and Kallstrom in midfield. Umm…
Match Pictures:















More Pictures at River Plate’s official site.
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Comments
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Rivers goal could have been avoided if Ben Arfa was tighter on his man or one of the central defenders picked up the ONE striker in the box. Defense worries me this year, it just doesnt have the depth of previous years.
Ben Arfa’s goal was pretty, he and Benz need to link up more and we will have a potent attack just with that. You could see the confidence it gave him and also when they cut to Perrin and he has a smirk on his face cause he is sticking with Ben Arfa and he is starting to pay him back. I also like how when Belhadj gets the ball he darts up field immediately, someone needs to teach him how to be a defender.
Remy did win the penalty, that counts for something, while Paillot seemed to settle in nicely. Bodmer should feature in midfield, and let Paillot play in defense. Bolton will use kevin davies as there striker, so paillot will be out there to use his height to win the headers. Muller and Belhadj are tired, but the defense is very leaky, its troubling. How did Mounier play?Posted from
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Great post as always Inara, very informative. Aside from Cruzeiro, I’ve always enjoyed watching European teams like Barcelona who are great entertainers, but now, even though I don’t watch their game, I’m starting to like Lyon as well. I’ve been reading a bit on them and really like them. On to business, you left me a comment asking how Cruzero are doing financially. Well, from what I know Fred’s still are most expensive player. Financially we are doing good. We do end up selling our better players and ending up mid-table, but because of that we are one of the richer clubs in Brazil. Last year Brazil exported something like 400 players to other countries, Cruzeiro led the pack with 18 sold. Last report I saw was one dating back to 2004 and that year I believe we were the second Brazilian club with the most revenue, behind only Santos (Santos won that year’s tournament). I was going to make a post on this topic on my blog, but finding and translating all the info is pretty demanding.
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I forgot to mention this in my post, but this is Lyon’s third Peace Cup final in four years. Maybe this time Lyon could actually win it.
Corey: I think Ben Arfa, Belhadj, and Benzema have a solid understanding of each other and can perhaps make Lyon’s left side dangerous despite the departures of Abidalouda. And with Keita on the right, maybe Lyon’s edges didn’t lose their sharpness. On the OL website, there is a comment from Ben Arfa saying that he and Benzema have a connection after playing together for so many years. And yes, Muller and Belhadj are tired - they played in all three matches so far, as well as the friendly with Lille (according to the website the clocked in the most time too). But they have to play against Bolton too. Mounier was alright. Not his best performance, but he came in as a sub. He’s fast and speedy, and I think he and Ben Arfa can rotate.
AJ: Thanks for the info. I’m glad to hear that Cruzeiro isn’t in penury, though I understand what it’s like seeing all your players stolen away. And please do write about the finances! It’s a really interesting topic, one that once you start writing, really sucks you in. You’d be surprised to discover the ways your club earns and spends money. After I did one for Lyon (here), I realized why the club makes the purchases it does.
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I am so impressed by the quality of the comments.
I agree that we will have some difficulties in the first part of the season with the defense. If Cris and Squillaci get injured, we will be in trouble.
BUT I’d rather keep it this way. Defenders don’t get injured as often, and hopefully Cris and Squillaci won’t be too injured. I would prefer to be slightly short with my bench than having too many players and kill the group atmosphere. We would lose more points because of bad group atmosphere than because of lack of defenders (see end of season).
Now that Alou Diarra is gone, I think we will definitely buy a midfielder… And then we will be finished with transfers. At least, that’s my wish.Posted from
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I agree with Pride of Lyon, except on the fact that I think we do not need another midfielder. We made a mistake taking Fabio Santos last winter, which caused Diarra being more and more unhappy with his time play. Without this recruitment, I think he would have been a bit happier of his time of the pitch, and maybe would have not gone. Then Perrin would have given him his chance, which Houiller didn’t.
All we need now is a new striker. It looks like we really are switching to a 4-4-2, and we have 4 CB for 2 spots and only 3 strikers for 2 spots. With Benzema and Fred getting injured quite often, we may end up in big trouble. Like last year when playing in Bernabeu, with only Carew remaining (and we only played with a single-striker 4-3-3 on that time).Aulas wanted to reduce the (wage charges) manpower in the team. Now several key players are gone (Tiago, Abidal, Malouda, Diarra) so I think we really can afford a high-wage good striker. We just cannot rely on Fred (injuries + a fool) and the other two only.
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Yes salieri, I agree with you, but I think we need an attacking midfielder more than a striker as such. someone who can play behind a lone striker. (same still play as Ronaldinho, but obviously not him).
Because Fred, Baros and Benzema are not just substitutes for me, so they should be able to play quite a bit (or it’ll create tensions). A young attacking midfielder can be perfect to prepare for the future. (did I say Renato?)Posted from
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I agree such a good midfielder would be very good to take, but only if we switch to a 4-2-3-1. I can’t wait to see Perrin try this option, but at the moment he does not seem likely to.
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Valencia claim they are close to landing Kallstrom. I am so hoping that it’s just a inflated transfer rumor.
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Its rubbish, Kallstrom isnt going anywhere. Renato Augusto would be a good edition, but with Diarra leaving I feel like we are a little light in the midfield if we play 4-4-2 or 4-3-3. Heres my Depth Chart:
GK- Coupet Vercoutre Hartock Aymes
DR- Rev, Clerc
DL- Belhadj, Grosso
DC- Cris, Toto, Muller, Paillot
DM- Toulalan, Fabio Santos, Beynie
CM- No one really
AM- Juninho, Kallstrom, Bodmer (all three can play CM but are not the Tiago/Essien type that is required for 4-3-3)
RW- Keita, Govou, Remy
LW- Ben Arfa, Mounier
ST- Baros, Benzema, FredAs everyone knows, two players per position is usually good enough, but the quality of that 2nd player is called into question here. At DM, Fabio Santos has proven to be utter crap, he can not be trusted in the CL. This really leaves Toulalan, which is a scary thought because he will end up playing 40 games+ just for Lyon which is exhausting. Beynie I have never seen play, but we know he cant be trusted in the CL either. That spot, although adequately covered, is a weakspot. At CM we really dont have anyone. Sure Toulalan, Fabio Santos, Bodmer and Kallstrom can play there, but either they are more defensive or offensive then they need to be. This is a problem area, and I suggest a signing for this spot now tha Diarra is gone. My suggestions are unlimited, the one i liked the most (Matiudi) plays for Les Verts now so he is a big NO. At RW we are covered and LW technically we are too, with Keita able to play out of postition there. ST is covered as well, with Keita able to play that role too, and even with a 4-4-2, Ben Arfa can play as the second striker and belhadj will be the left midfielder. So in essence, a CB would be alright but i love Paillot, he is a string bean but so athletic, he resembles Squillaci. A striker would be alright too, but the group would be put off by this. A CM/DM is essential now in my opinion, especially if we are to challenge for the CL. But I have to be a pessimist and say that we may win Ligue 1, albeit unconvincingly, but we wont come close to the CL again without a stronger squad. The cups may be a good avenue of attack to keep the fans happy, but the CL is out of our reach now.
4-4-2
Coupet
Rev/Clerc Cris/Muller Toto/Paillot Grosso/BelhadjToulalan/FS/Beynie Kallstrom/Juni/Bodmer
Keita/Govou/Remy Ben Arfa/Mounier
Fred/Benzema/Baros/Keita/Ben Arfa
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Very good comment Corey, as usual…
On the tactical requirements of the team, I have nothing to add, perfect overview.
But I would like to do just one remark on the “players’ ego management”, in order to have your opinion about this factor.
After the episodes Pedretti and Diarra, it seems that Lacombe is not really found to have one more midfielder.
I know you are speaking of a CM whereas OL have only DM, but I am stressing more on the aspect that you have only a limited number of places as “midfielder”: either CM or DM : 2 or 3 spots depending of the organization.
Already at the last winter mercato, Houiller wanted another midfielder and then Fabio Santos has been transferred, whereas Lacombe argued that Muller could have be put as DM/CM the time Diarra and Toulalan come back from injury. I remember a Le Progres’s article where Lacombe was moaning that it would create a bad ambiance in the team because players would have definitely not the chance to play
…and bingo : big ego conflicts !!!
So I don’t know if Lyon is really looking for a pure CM, but I think it they take a player, it would be a kind of pearl who can play either as a sub for CM or as a sub for the DC/DL spot.
It seems that Perrin is convinced that N’daw is such a polyvalent player, but I would be interested to know what is the actual position of Lacombe & Aulas after the “déballage de vestiaire” that OL has known this season…PS: Maxi Lopez at the OM, OMG : OM fans are definitely convinced that it is not only the French League but also the CL that Om would win next year….
But in the same time, if the media’s pressure can concentrate on OM and forget OL a little bit, it is maybe not so bad, nininiPosted from
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Apparently Lyon is willing to negotiate for Kallstrom according to AS. They won’t negotiate for under 15m - though if tiago went for 13, I can see Kallstrom going for 11-12. If Kallstrom goes, Lyon will definitely go for another CM.
Depth wise, I think we are okay is most departments. All Lyon seem to do is recruite players at a homogenous skill level, so when we play, we don’t really have a drop in quality. We don’t have a super good player either, so we lack a spark unless Ben Arfa steps up. So for me, recruitment should be closed unless we get in one of those players.
But I think there is a difference in recruiting Fabio Santos and REnato Augusto. At Lyon, we play with only one DM (and don’t forget Bodmer and Muller can fill in that role if necessary too, with TOulalan and Santos). But our attacking midfield options are slimmer and more limited, and as it stands, we have three players for two spots. And given that Juni can’t play as much this year, an attacking midfielder - a young one - isn’t too bad.
I don’t think we need a CB either, tbh. And if we get a striker, I would like to see either Fred or Baros leave.
We aren’t going to win the CL this year, and Aulas knows it. It’s why he hired Perrin and is focusing on developing the young talents like Ben Arfa, Mounier, and Benzema, so that Lyon can win it in two years. The club’s aim is probably to make the QF or SF this time, and hopefully a domestic double.
But please, someone tell Perrin no Rothen and no N’Daw.
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Lyon won the peace cup. Ben Arfa showed why he deserves to be in the starting XI.
He is incredible. Good performance of the team. We didnt seem to miss Juninho in this game, that’s a good sign.
Our strikers can’t score but I don’t think it is an issue as such. The team is finding a better atmosphere with Diarra out and hopefully soon Wiltord.I am very happy with the performance, we look like a team again, not individuals.
I am sure the strikers will find the back of the net soon.There is the rumor of Reyes now, but I honestly dont think he would be good for the team’s spirit.
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I wrote a long message, and then couldn’t post it, and upon refreshing the page lost it.
So here’s a short version :
[B]Corey, Inara[/B] : Saha and Anelka would be great for Lyon, far better than Benzema, Fred, Riou, Baros, or anyone else :
Both have experience of high level competition (Man Utd for Saha, Aresenal, Real Madrid for Anelka).
Both play in different and varied styles (Anelka was used by Wenger as a percussion player behind Bergkamp, and at Real Madrid as an all-out striker in front of Raul, in Fenher, Bolton, Man City, he played various roles, adapting to the team set-up, Saha played as a winger, then as an all-out striker, and at Man Utd plays as a support or an all-out striker, depending on his team-mates).
Both are of better technical level than any Lyon player.
Both are of better physical condition than any Lyon player.
Both are resolute winners (Champions League, english Double and turk league for Anelka, English League, English League cup for Saha).
Both are hard workers (Anelka has calmed down since he moved to Fener, and Saha is considered good influence thanks to his calm temper at Man Utd).All in all, Both would be great buys for Lyon, and they could strike up a very good attack pairing, IMO.
[B]Corey[/B] : IMO, Lyon’s depth chart seems to be very fragile…
GK- Coupet Vercoutre Hartock Aymes
No problem here, since Coupet is top level and save something exceptional, he shouldn’t be out for long. Covered, 1 star
DR- Rev, Clerc
Both are too weak to be CL level. Mancini played tricks on Lyon last season, and there’s no limit to what Kaka, Ronaldinho, Ronaldo, and Co. could do… Not covered.
DL- Belhadj, Grosso
Belhadj has no experience, so I doubt he’ll be the part. Also, he didn’t make a big impression on me last season (ok, I didn’t follow all Sochaux’s matches). Grosso is a solid player, but it’s important to remember that he was pushed out of Inter’s starting 16, by… Maxwell. Wow. He’ll be O.K. for CL level, but he will probably not be a “star”, as he’s getting slow… And he only speaks italian… A covered position, but without star player.
DC- Cris, Toto, Muller, Paillot
Cris and Squillaci are top picks. Muller is ok for a league replacement, and Paillot is young. Covered, with 1 star player : Cris.
DM- Toulalan, Fabio Santos, Beynie
IMO, Bodmer can play as a DM too, so a covered place with 2 stars imo.
CM- No one really
Imo Toulalan, or Kallström. Kallström played as a very versatile player for Rennes, and Toulalan was Nantes’ all-midfield-man for 2 seasons… Covered with 2 star players
AM- Juninho, Kallstrom, Bodmer (all three can play CM but are not the Tiago/Essien type that is required for 4-3-3)
Strongly covered. 3 star players,
RW- Keita, Govou, Remy
Keita is inconsistent, but very good. However, having watched his match against Man Utd at OT last season, I felt he was a joke, the way Brown stopped his runs with such ease. I haven’t seen Brown play as well since. Leads me to doubt Keita’s CL level, but at Lyon he’ll progress. Govou is also inconsistent, and IMO not CL level. Remy is only L1 level… And only barely. Covered, 1 star player
LW- Ben Arfa, Mounier
Nothing. I like Ben Arfa, but I don’t think he’s a real winger, more a support striker. I dont think he has CL level yet. Mounier… Well… Not a winger either, IMO. Not covered.
ST- Baros, Benzema, Fred
Covered, but without a star player. Fred, Baros, Benzema are good, but Baros and Fred don’t seem to fit into the team, and Benzema needs 2-3 seasons before he’s CL level. IMO.[B]Irana[/B] : I don’t think Perrin will ever be able to do what Ferguson did. Ferguson took 6 years as a manager and 4 in a club (Aberdeen) to win his first League, and after 9 years already had a Cup winner’s Cup… With Aberdeen. After the same amount of time, Perrin was still a youth coach at Nancy, and after twice the time, he was at Troyes… in League 2. WOW!! Also, Ferguson won the CWC with Aberdeen (smaller than the old firm Rangers & Celtic), won a league after 23 years of waiting, and has made Aberdeen the only scottish club to win 2 European competitions (European Super Cup in 1884). He then went to Man Utd, and after 4 seasons won a Cup winner’s Cup… And after 5 years Man Utd’s first league title since 1967. He was able to bring up Fergie’s Fledgelings, but he did it over 13 years, and by deeply modifying how the club works. Were Perrin half as able as Ferguson, then he’d have more to show for 24 years as a manager than an intertoto cup and a french cup…
So I don’t think Lyon are walking in Man Utd’s footsteps… Rather in those of Bayern in the 60s and 70s… But Bayern were lead forth by 3 players of undisputed quality : Maier, Beckenbauer and Muller…
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Ok Lyon won. That’s good but the fact that our strikers are not efficient really worries me. We could have scored like 10 goals today.
But still, we won that Peace Cup. And one should explain me why Anelka prefers Bolton over Lyon, this match was a serious proof that OL is way better.
Now I hope we will recruit a good striker, since Wiltord is almost gone. Go Reyes?
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Mat-Wiltord and Diarra leaving will help the teams atmosphere, but then again they are two strong players who will not be replaced like for like, so this must be a concern. As far as recruitment leading to the creation of disharmony, these are professionals, and the increased competition should be welcomed, not looked upon as negative. The problem that arose last year was from Fred and Diarra, who are immature and not tru profesiionals. they could not handle the competition within the squad and were premadonnas about the arrival of players Houllier didnt really need. The reactly poorly, but then again they were both treated poorly by the coach which has lead to us debating something that should never have been a problem. Signing a CM or DM I believe will be overlooked even though it should be a priority, because we cannot not trust Fabio Santos. If we want to look at it broadly, Bodmer, Kallstrom and Juninho are AM or CM, what they are is very similar players, and we need some variety in there. One player, not a big name but someone who brings quality into the squad.
Shazback- I dont entirely agree with your player analysis, your very distrusting of out squad. But as Inara had always pointed out, Lyon does not have the financial clot to compensate for the salaries of Saha and Anelka, they dont make as much as Trez but they still earn alot. A drop in salary and quality of league really cant be to appealing. As Inara said, the next year or two under Perrin is to develop and start over again. Le Guen was our best shot at getting the CL in his last year in charge, everyone knows we had the strongest squad then. Houlliers first year was a continuation but not as strong, and that chance went begging to. So Lyon is gonna take the time to develop Paillot, Benzema, Ben Arfa, Mounier, Remy, Beynie and hopefully Johnathan Mendes, my favorite youth team player. These players, combined with two or three strong signings per transfer window will form the squad we need to win the CL. I dont even expect a league title this year to be honest, i have lowered my expectations while keeping na eye on the future.
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Pride of Lyon: Ben Arfa had a good match today, and it’s looking more and more like Kallstrom, Bodmer, and Toulalan can function without Juni – but we sure do miss him on those fks! I agree – the fact that we had so many clear chances today but were unable to put them away is troubling. And you’re right – it was nice to see the players happy again. It looks like all the new players are integrated – even Grosso!
Shazback: While I agree that Anelka would be good for Lyon, I am unconvinced about Saha. While he does play for United, he can’t make it through an entire season, and considering the fact that Fred and Benzema are already injury prone, Lyon need a tougher player, like Baros but more efficient. Saha is definitely not in better physical condition than an OL player, though he has a great deal of technical ability. With his wage demands, I don’t know if he’s a risk worth taking if he’s going to play a third of Lyon’s games. The fact that Alex Ferguson accused him of being mentally convinced of his injuries is troubling too.
And Anelka apparently turned down Lyon – he said Bolton’s sporting project was more appealing. Which makes no sense of course.
Just some comments on your depth chart comments. RB: I don’t hold the Mancini incident against Reveillere because on that night, he could have done that to even a seasoned right back like Willy Sagnol or a super talent like Daniel Alves. Reveillere is not world class but the best in L1, though I think Clerc could become world class.
DL: Grosso can speak French, so don’t worry! Plus, I thin Belhadj will surprise us all pleasantly. The fact that he came from Sedan to become Lyon’s best player (in friendlies, I know, but still…) is impressive. And the good thing about Belhadj is that he doesn’t have any fixed ideas about his limitations, so he’s very fearless. Added to his technical ability, he’s dynamite. His defensive contributions are weaker, so hopefully Perrin will work with him.
DC: Agree, except I think Squillaci is a star player too. Maybe not as well known as Cris, but just as talented. As he gets more exposure in Europe, expect to see his value rise.
RW: Personally, I think Keita is a better winger than Ribery and Malouda, but less well known than Ribery and less consistent than Malouda. He is fast and speedy and technically superior. His inconsistency I’ve come to expect in all brilliant wingers, since the best ones can’t produce all the time. I don’t hold that CL game against him either because I’ve also seen Keita go past very good defenders with ease as well.
We don’t really have star players, but at Lyon the team has always been the star, so I’m not troubled at not having a household name in every position. In fact, it gives us an advantage because people underestimate us at times.
Also, I don’t expect Perrin to be the next Ferguson either. But the difference between the two men is that while Ferguson is the architect for United’s successes, Perrin isn’t. Lyon’s sporting project was in place long before he got here and will be here after he leaves. I don’t think Aulas expects to keep Perrin beyond the three years of his contract unless he does very well. Ultimately, Aulas will want a world class manager at Lyon, to go along with the world class team he is trying to build.
Salieri: I too am worried about striker efficiency. We always have a gazillion chances, and sometimes, we can’t take any of them. Lyon seem to be able to unravel nearly any defense, but they always get stopped by the gk. It’s like all their shots are designed to make the goalkeepers look good.
Corey: Lyon have always had a stacked manpower, even during the Essien days. But Houllier, Fred, and Diarra turned this sour, and then of course there was the treatment of Cacapa, and Malouda and Abidal’s growing ambitions…Everything went wrong for Lyon in the locker rooms. I’m hoping that Perrin is able to keep a tighter reign on these situations.
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Congrats to everyone here, you all have made intelligent, well informed posts, stimulating lively debates about important issues. Makes me so proud
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Corey : I think Diarra and Fred refusing to play for the CFA team is normal. Diarra is picked in front of Toulalan for France’s A internationals, and Fred showed that he was head and shoulders above CFA level last season. Why would they risk injury to play alongside juinors? Even more so when Lyon have no reserves (reserves 1 are the only side Lyon have, after reserves 2 got relegated below tier 7, whilst other sides have 3 reserve teams between CFA and tier 7).
As for the 7 youth players you named, they only took Lyon to 11th place in the LFP’s ranking… with less than 1/2 of Rennes’ points (13?? for Lyon, 28?? for Rennes). And they didn’t win any competition last year. (Man Utd’s youth generation that ended up winning the CL won 7 trophies in 5 years.)
Lyon’s main problem is the one you mentioned after : buying and keeping quality players. Lyon can’t do it yet.
Inara : Saha’s injuries are mainly concussion injuries, something he wouldn’t suffer in a softer league like france. So were he to join Lyon, he’s probably be able to play almost all the matches.
Anelka already has a CL… He might think that winning a UEFA cup with Bolton is more interesting that persuing the CL with a heavily diminished Lyon side…
I hold the Mancini event against Reveillère… Mancini is known for being a player who likes to do step-overs (at least 4 goals I can think of where he does it), and so for a defender who has prepared the match to not cope with it is a pretty obvious problem… Mancini wasn’t much of a problem for Milan, Inter, Man Utd or Fiorentina when he played against them… So I don’t think that it’s a “on the night” thing. Mancini does step-overs against struggling defenders who can’t cope with his speed and are afraid of taking him on… Something any CL level defender should do. Abidal didn’t have any problems getting his side sorted agaisnt Roma. Clerc “could” become a lot of things, included a great international. Or nothing.
Grosso and Belhadj both suffer the same problem : they go up too much. Were Lyon solid at the back, no problem. But with Lyon’s fragile back 4 (none of the 4 would get into Barcelona, Chelsea or Milan’s back 4), they can’t have the same amount of freedom. And asking them to stay back reveals their weaker side… Berlhadj could be Lyon’s best signing, but he isn’t a great defender. He’s like a toned-down version of Evra. Grosso is an older Evra. And neither are as technical or physical as Evra. They’ll do the job in L1 for sure, but I’d not bet on them in the CL.
Squillaci has been all over the place since 2001 or 2002… And he never rose to the level people thought he could be at. Got a CL final… As part of the weakest defences ever. Got a few international games, but was pushed down the pecking order by Boumsong… I don’t think he handles pressure very well, and also seems quite limited, IMO. Again, only just CL level as he gets more experience, but he’s far from a “star” player. He would perhaps get on the bench in any of the 1/2-finals of last years CL, but that’s it. Not in any of the starting 11s.
I’m unsure as to if Keita is better than Ribery, since they are both terribly inconsistant. However, both are a sure rank under Malouda. Malouda can play wide or close (Keita only plays wide), is faster than both, can assume more defensive positions, is a better passer, a better crosser… And a better dribbler. Keita and Ribery are both IMO just physically very strong and explosive, but not technical enough to beat players who can rival them in physical matters. Ribery only has a very limited repertoire, perhaps Keita’s is a little larger. But both are a long shot from Malouda. As for “good” wingers being inconsistant : Giggs isn’t good? C.Ronaldo either? Robben is useless? Cole? Beckham? Ronaldinho? Messi?… Good wingers are inconsistant, but then there are players above that level of just “good”. Malouda is one of them.
Lyon’s lack of “stars” would be good… if it meant they had 2 full teams of comparable levels. But currently, Lyon have only one squad, with poor replacements. The lack of “star” players is just because once they are good enough, most players want to, and succeed in, leave Lyon. Other squads do this too, and better : PSV Eindhoven, FC Porto… Lyon ended up becoming better than them because Lyon held their players untill they became “stars” (Malouda, Essien, Diarra, Abidal, Tiago) and then sold them. Lyon currenly does have stars : Juninho, Kallstrom, Toulalan, Coupet… But the problem is they all play in similar positions, leaving the team strongly unbalanced when “almost star” players are injured : Squillaci? Keita? Benzema? Belhadj?
Aulas had a chance to sign a world class manager, and got one : Gerard Houllier. But world class managers need to organise the club completely, not just pick the starters. Houllier wanted to change many things and ended up leaving because Aulas put him in a situation where he was, in his words, “like a formula one pilot”, wheras at liverpool he was “a formula one team director”. I think Aulas has understood this, and doesn’t want anyone to challenge his decisions. He controls the club completely, from tranfers to trainings, and wants the manager to just be “an employee” who shuts up and does what he says. Sorry, but no top level coaches would accept that. Aulas didn’t let Houllier make the changes he wanted because he felt it would damage his position. After all, look at the media exposure he gets, and compare it to that of any president in the spanish, italian, german or english leagues. President’s leave media exposure to managers, because they have other things to do. But Aulas doesn’t want a manger to replace him as “voice and face” of OL. So he gets average managers.
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Correct, but this is the reserves league. Lyon dont really have any first team players in the reserve team usually. The reserve squad that competes against Rennes reserves is full of youngsters, 17,18,19 and 20 years old. That they finished mid table is more then respectable and shows that they all have potential. Its like Real Madrid, their B team consists entirely of youth players, and they are on the second division! this means that the young guys are getting terrific experience at 18 and 19. MAM U’s youth team played against other youth teams. In England, there is not the same structure as in France or England. Youth and reserve teams dont play in the League 2 or the Championship, they play against each other. So the youth vs. youth is a fair match, while Lyon has a reserve team full of youth players and someone like rennes has half the team over 25 and with loads more experience. So this is not a fair comparison.
Also, Auluas gets as much media exposure as presidents in the other european leagues. There really is not difference, he actually receives less then someone like Ramon Calderon. Getting a high quality manager means having a high quality league and alot of available scrilla. We dont have either, until that changes we wont have a Marcelo Lippi or Big Phil.Posted from
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About the CFAs: Lyon’s reserve squad plays in what is basically France’s fourth division, where they come up against other reserve sides and amateur clubs, but only the amateur clubs can be promoted to National. In England, reserve squads play only each other, and in Spain, reserve squads are allowed to be promoted to professional leagues (such as Real Madrid Castilla). However, Spanish reserve squads cannot play in the same division as their senior team. In Spain, the reserve and senior squads are practically two different teams.
Playing a handful of matches in the CFAs doesn’t necessarily indicate that it’s because they are poor players. It’s also a good way for players to build up/maintain fitness, especially after coming back from an injury. Fred and Diarra were out injured for a long time, and playing the CFAs is more gentle – far less risk of injury than playing in a professional match. It was never meant to be a permanent move. It’s also a disciplinary measure, which Fred and Diarra deserved. Being asked to play a match in the CFA is a lot better than being told not the play at all (just ask Antonio Cassano). For the record, the matches that Houllier asked Fred and Diarra to play with the reserves were at the Gerland, on days of really good weather. Since they didn’t make the senior squad for whatever reason, it would have been 90 minutes of light playing – basically a scrimmage.
In response to Shazback’s comments:
I wouldn’t call L1 a soft league. It isn’t like the EPL, but it’s definitely physical. There are some pretty brutal tackles in France, though the referee is more likely to whistle as opposed to England. My problem with Saha has to do with SAF’s allegation that Saha’s problems are in his mind – that is, he is physically fit but that he’s convinced he’s not fit. I don’t know whether there is any truth to them or not, but United seem to be pushing him out, and it’s not because of his skill. That makes me wary. OL’s staff has more important things to do than to coddle players. I agree though, that his experience would be beneficial. Just not at the expense of team harmony.
I’ve seen Mancini fool Inter’s and Milan’s defenders too. Reveillere did a pretty good job against Real Madrid, and he did a good job against AC Milan last year too (it was Abidal who messed up). I don’t think Reveilliere is good enough for the top three of any of the big three leagues + Bayern, but among second tier clubs like Lyon, I think he’s the best we can get. What really good RBs are out there that you can name? I can think of only a handful, and they will never come to France.
Our LB situation has weakened, but again, the fullback position is one area where the options are fewer than you would think. I would have preferred Armand to Grosso, to be honest, given the options Lyon had. And the main ones were: Heinze, Silvestre, Jansen, Armand, Grosso, Mathieu. Evra would not leave MU for us, neither would Clichy from Arsenal. Jansen preferred to stay in Germany, Heinze was unconvincing, and Silvestre sucks. There was also Marcelo, who Real Madrid snapped up (we were scouting him in September). I hate to say it, but it’s actually really hard to get world class defenders to come to a club like Lyon because they are less prone to switching clubs and because for a defender to be world class (it’s hard for defenders to get attention), they are already out of Lyon’s reach.
I actually think Squillaci has been Lyon’s best player in 2006-2007. He hardly ever has a bad game, rarely gets carded, rarely gets injured, is timely with his tackles, makes good interceptions with his head, and is also unafraid of scoring. I think he did better than Cris this year, and that’s saying a lot. Would be make it only a team in last year’s CL semis? Probably not, but I expect his value to increase after another year or so.
As for my comparison of Keita, in terms of raw talent, I think Malouda has less than Keita, Ribery, and even Ben Arfa. However, I have always held that Malouda is a better player because he is reliable. He will not dazzle but he will not disappoint either. But Malouda is as good as he’ll ever be, and the only improvements will be in his timing. Keita and Ribery still have a long way to go in terms of peaking.
I do think the best wingers (ie the eye catching ones) are inconsistent. C. Ronaldo is inconsistent (great this year, not that great the year before), as is Ronaldinho (all of last year). And Robben is definitely inconsistent, along with Quaresma (Beckham tends to sit deeper in midfield, though he too isn’t good week in and week out). These players have two good games and then four bad ones. Consistent wingers that often don’t get as much attention are Giggs, Malouda, Simao, etc. Most people tend to consider the joga bonito style players to be the best out there, which is unfortunate. Right before Chelsea bout Malouda, you should have seen the complaints about him by Liverpool and Chelsea fans – they wanted Mancini! FYI, for me, Malouda is the best in his position in the whole world, not just because of his talent but because of his work rate, which is just as important.
Lyon’s A and B teams aren’t that much different from each other. Kallstrom/Bodmer/Juninho, Keita/Govou, Fred/Baros/Benzema, Clerc/Reveillere, Grosso/Belhadj, Toulalan/Santos, Ben Arfa/Mounier, Cris/Squillaci/Muller/Paillot, Coupet/Vercoutre. Of those pairings, I think Toulalan’s replacement is a lot inferior (though we did have Diarra there), Ben Arfa/Mounier are both too young, and CBs are also skewed in quality, with Muller and Paillot a sharp drop off from Cris and Squillaci. And of course Coupet and Vercoutre. Everyone else is rather interchangeable.
Managers: I agree to an extent. In a lot of my earlier posts, I complained that Lyon’s policy of limiting authority for the managers would in the end hurt the club. One of the reasons Puel didn’t want to come to Lyon was because he didn’t want to be restricted. At Lille, his say is final, whereas at Lyon, it wouldn’t be. We saw this go wrong at Juventus too. The best managers out there are the ones with strong personalities, who would never accept being just an employee. However, I don’t think Lyon’s policy is set up to satisfy Aulas’s power urges. I think it’s more along the lines of “this system is what made us successful in the first place.” Aulas and Lacombe have run the club since 1987, and it’s hard for them to step back now and put the fate of the club in the hands of a manager that is just walking in, to give him unlimited power in terms of money and signings. And let’s not forget, both Le Guen and Houllier had a bad history of signing players. So too does Perrin. Anyway, the problem with Houllier was his relation to Lacombe, whom Houllier felt was undermining his authority. Aulas’s insistence on giving Nanard so much power is bound to make any coach feel irritated. Even though Perrin said that he doesn’t mind working with Lacombe over him, I’m wondering how long he’ll last.
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So in conclusion then, Lyon’s reserve squad, which is almost entirely comprised of youth players, is playing against a combo of reserves and amateur sides. This means the quality of their matches is much higher then the youth players in England who play against each other, because youth and reserve teams have their own seperate leagues. As an 18 year old defender, id rather play against semi pro’s and the occassional rehabing pro in a reserve team then against other 18 year olds, it will get me ready for the first team.
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About reserve leagues : In England, reserve leagues are by professional side level. Reserves of sides in EPL play ONLY against reserves of sides in EPL. In Spain, reserves are completely free, but can’t play in the same league as the professional side. In France, reserves can’t be above CFA level.
In England, reserve leagues are 10-team leagues, with 4 games between each 2 sides (think SPL). So Everton’s reserves play against Liverpool reserves or Man City reserves… But not against Crewe or Bury’s. In France, CFA level is really poor (less than english reserves group 1 or 2 by a long shot, since there are only 4 pro side reserves in each of the 4 groups)… Spain’s reserves are the hardest, but with the biggest differences between reseve sides.
To make a long post short : Man Utd reserves play Liverpool reserves, Everton reserves, Newcastle reserves, Reading reserves, etc… Lyon reserves play Duchères, US Azure or Ajaccio reserves. Whoop de doo. It’s more than just a punishment, it’s a health hazard.
England’s reserves are considered to be amongst the best, as well as england’s U-18 leagues. Since they are based on the A team’s results, this means that strong sides (Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, Tottenham, Everton, etc.) have top level competition for each of their sides, from U-16 to A team. In France, the difference in level between A side and reserve is massive, and between U-18 and reserves as well, since U-18s play in local leagues… Lyon - Rhaônne anybody?
About the LFP’s youth ranking : the LFP calculate this based on U-21s… so if Rennes get more than the double of Lyon’s points, it’s because they have very talented youth players (Bru, etc.) who are able to batter Lyon’s youth sides blue. (Rennes’ reserves 2 are playing in a league that is 2 divisions above Lyon’s reserves 2).
RBs : Neville, Touré, Johnson, Carvalho, Bridge, Arbeloa, Carragher, Brown, O’Shea… in England alone I can think of a few who are at least as good as Reveillère… if not better. But you’re right in saying that top RBs don’t want to come to france.
You’re a bit harsh on Heinze… He’s part of the defence that conceded the fewest goals in the premier league… and only missed out on some games this season because of injury. Were he not a very very good defender, Liverpool wouldn’t want to buy him to replace Riise…
Ribery is 24, Keita is 25 and Malouda is 27. Wingers peak between 26 and 29, and most of their talent is nurtured before they are 22. None of the 3 will progress dramatically, but I think that dispite being older, Malouda will join a club where he can learn (like Ribery, but more) : Robben and Cole will be pushing him to a new level. Keita won’t have a model at Lyon, and could stagnate, since his only competition is Govou…
C.Ronaldo is 22. Last season he was 21, and did a very good season for a 21-year old. Consistency is not season-long either, but rather over 2 or 3 weeks… Ronaldo is very consistant : Very good or Excellent. Ronaldinho isn’t a winger (att. mid.) and Robben and Cole are both eye-catching… But are injury-prone and often only play 20 minutes in Mourinho’s schemes.
Corey, to get an idea of how “good” french CFA level is, think that Ajaccio (league 2) have a reserve side in CFA, with only players under 20… Great, nay?
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Right, but in the reserve teams in England it is predominately the players who did not get picked for the upcoming match, while for Lyon it is basicall the last youth side before the first team. So your comparing apples to oranges. In England youth sides meet youth sides, while if France with lyon, their “youth side” known as the reserves meets other reserves and a few semi-pro teams. As for Ajaccio, thats great, thats what Lyons reserve side is too, thats what most reserve sides are in France. All in all, the realy talented youth have traditionally been developed at Clairefontaine.
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Playing for the reserves in any country is a let down, but I don’t think there is that much of a difference between England and France in terms of reserves. With Spain, for sure since they are real teams.
In England, most of the youth don’t end up in top level clubs. A lot of them end up in the Championship, even the ones from United and Liverpool. Unlike in France, where youth often get promoted to the senior teams in the EPL, you hardly see than in England, even among the bottom tier clubs. Youth set up in France is better.
If a team like Lyon can successfully integrate at least two or three players every two years or so (and we have quite a bit, even if they are back ups), then why don’t the Premiership teams?
Players like Clerc, Ben Arfa, Benzema, now Mounier and Paillot. They are all bench players at the moment, but the first three would surely be on the bench in the top six or seven EPL clubs.
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England have more youth players than you think…
Liverpool :
1990s : Jamie Carragher, Robbie Fowler, Steven Gerrard, Dominic Matteo, Steve McManaman, Michael Owen, David Thompson, Stephen Wright
2000s : Neil Mellor, Stephen WarnockMan Utd :
1990s : Beckham, Giggs, Scholes, Butt, Gillespie, P.Neville, G.Neville, Savage
2000s : Bardsley, Brown, Fletcher, O’Shea, Pique, Robinson, RossiWest Ham : R.Ferdinand, Lampard, Cole, Carrick, Defoe, Johnson, Campbell, A.Ferdinand, Cohen, Noble
Everton : Rooney, Ball, Barton
Arsenal : Fabregas, Djourou
Man City : Wright-Phillips…
Most premiership clubs have formed at least one great player over the last 10 years. French clubs can’t say as much. However, english clubs also form many “average” players, just like france does.
But there seems to be elements that say england has better football academies than france : how many french clubs have formed players that got into, say… 1/8th of finals (1st knockout round) in the CL since 2000? Not many, I guess. But england has loads. Between Leeds’ run in 2000 and Liverpool’s final in 2007, english players have shown day in day out that they can do the business : from Crouch to Woodgate, from Carrick to Fabregas, English formation has shown the world that it gets the best out of top players.
Also, Netherland’s U-21 squad that has won the UEFA U-21 cup 2 tims on the run has… 5 players that play in england, more than any other country save Holland (31). Spain comes third, as does Scotland with 1 player.
Another thing that’s surprising is that you seem to ignore that England’s youth systems train players regardless of nationality, whilst Clairefontaine only trains players with french nationality…
Inara : Johnson, Wright-Phillips, Cole, Rossi, Fletcher, Bardsley, Richardson, Kuckczak, Piqué, Park, Mikel, Makelele, Cudicini, Bouhlarouz, Crespo, Kewell, Sissoko, Crouch, Mido, Cerny, Murphy, Ghali, Chimbonda, Reyes, Walcott, Almunia, Song, Flamini… Clerc, Ben Arfa and Benzema would push onto any of Chelsea, Man Utd, Liverpool, Tottenham or Arsenal’s benches when these players miss matches because they’re left out, not even on the bench?
Benzema is good, but Kalou, Rossi, Obi Mikel, Bendter and Walcott would get on the bench in front of him in most clubs. I mean, Lyon are trying to BUY Reyes from Arsenal, who were so confident they wouldn’t need him that they loaned him out for a season. You can’t go saying “oh yes buying Reyes who is Arsenal’s 4th choice so he’d be our best striker would be great” and then say “Benzema would be Arsenal’s 2nd or 3rd choice striker”. Reyes > Benzema, or OL are mad to want to buy him. Since Van Persie > Edouardo > Adebayor > Walcott = Bendter = Reyes, and Benzema
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