I’m Still in Denial
By: Inara | March 12th, 2009I still haven’t processed last night’s debacle. The suckitude of the players astounded me. I can’t believe that the team that played last night is the one that played against Barca two weeks ago. What is this, the athletic version of Jekyll and Hyde?
Even taking injuries into account, Lyon should have played better. We all know that the most logical outcome of this match was going to be a loss for OL, but last night was less Barca being amazing and more Lyon being shit. I know I sound harsh, but I can’t think of a single positive thing from last night. I don’t care what could have been. Sure at one point Lyon looked like they were closing the gap – but it doesn’t matter because they never did! Going three goals down in the span of 25 minutes is not acceptable, whether you’re playing Barca or Dundee United. Does anyone even know the last time Lyon conceded 5 (!!!) goals? Definitely not since I’ve been a fan!
And the way the players were behaving on the pitch – that was not how professional players should be acting. Even in defeat, players should show grace. But they didn’t. I mean, even if Lyon had somehow qualified, we’d be missing four key players! So that tells me is that the players new they were going to lose and so didn’t care about the cards they picked up. I am truly disappointed.
Who was to blame? Puel? The players? The club? Was it ME? I didn’t put up match previews for the last two games – games that Lyon lost – and since there is enough blame to go around, I might as well be ludicrous and take some for myself.
It’s going to take me awhile to digest this. I know I’ve probably upset some of you with my words, but this is honestly how I feel. I love my team, and it hurts seeing them like this because I know they are capable of so much more. But displays like that only set the club further back.
What’s to become of Lyon now? We’re in serious danger of losing the title, we’re out of the Champions League, the Coupe de la Ligue, and the Coupe de France – oh, and don’t forget we already lost the Trophee des Champions. It’s hilarious because at the beginning of the season, losing that season opener didn’t seem like a big deal because we all thought we were are target for better things, but I guess it was a sign of impending doom.
So sad, guys.
Category: Champions League
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Comments
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Shazback, you were spot on in that post. To be picky with the Arsenal post – Wenger did actually want to let go of Pires and Edu. Arsenal have struggled to replace these players well enough and that’s why they’re struggling this year, but for example – they bought Arshavin for 15 million recently. That’s the kind of player Lyon need, one with genuine ingenuity who can play others into the game. I think Benzema has been sorely missing a winger to give him chances, like he did with Ben Arfa. For all their misgivings off the pitch – on the pitch those two had real chemistry, and I don’t think that Delgado or Ederson are the answer at the moment.
I think Shazback got it right with saying you need a certain never say die attitude to win the Champions League which Lyon are clearly lacking. I don’t know quite what that is, I think it’s a mental problem as they feel inferior to the big guns – they certainly had that never say die quality against Steaua because they knew they were a better team, and they didn’t fear Bayern in the way that they did Barca or Man U. Lyon show too much respect to these big teams and get beaten for it. So they need to sort this out, the problem is with the players as much as it is the manager I think – because there are some players who have this mental resilience that can’t be trained. It’s something that Alex Ferguson looks for when signing a player, and it’s what has served them so well. Juninho and Benzema certainly have that right quality as does Toulalan, but Lyon really need 11 players who all have it – and that little bit of extra self belief.
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zback-Wenger pretty much wanted all of those players out(even Henry because he felt the team were playing more like a team without Henry;Henry would often become the centre of attention but Wenger wanted a young squad and Henry was aging and Wenger decided to cash in because he is canny and he new Henry was most likely not going to be as good than in years gone by)the only players I believe Wenger was keen to keep were Flamini and Cole the rest of them were to old and getting worse for it-Ljunberg,Vieira etc the likes of Diarra wasnt used by Wenger at all and Hleb scored six or seven goals in I think three seasons as well as the emergance of Walcott so Hleb wasnt a vital player like Essien for example. You guys all talk about Lyons supposed new stratergy of buying unheard of young players well we havent had any of the sort yet,you all always like to compare Lyon to Arsenal the difference is Arsenal play in the EPL they have a great manager,great fans,great spirit and are always looking to bring in young gems,I dont think other than Pjanic we have at all
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.I think to win the CL you need 6 things-A canny manager who gets the best out of his players and tactically astute for all scenarios and also knows the weakness and strengths of the players he has,Individual quality who are above the rest,however the rest are quality and compliment them-one or two players who at any given moment can make something happen,a solid defence,a big home stadium full of loud supporters who also travel away from home,pace you need players with pace because often in the champions league its all about counter attacks and beating a man,leadership and a bit of experience like Man u who have experience,Scholes,Giggs and ferdinand etc but youth also,Rooney,Rafael and Evans, etc leadersip in just one or teo players who will rally the troops when needs be,Belief you need belief for instance when you go to the camp nou you have to believe and tell yourself that you can win and that you have travelled there to thrash Barca-theres no good going there for autographs,
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,passion-the hole team should be in tears if you conceed a goal and when you score you leap with joy,work ethic and determination you have to be determined a bust a lung to get to a ball even if it looks unlikely,Togetherness the players must be united as one and not be playing well just to earn a move abroad and then go and squable at each other,strength in depth-you need a team that when they pick up injuries and suspensions you can trust another quality player to come in and play well,all round quality-the players have to be talented players and everything about the club has to be classy,your team has to be somewhat consistant and always play up at the big occasions. I think if you have all if not most of these points your team can make history by winning everything,also you need 3 or 4 big tall physical players(6”1+)players who if you are protecting a lead are strong and solid and can also stop players like Adebayor,Drogba and Ibrahimovic. As well as be good at both attacking and defending set pieces.
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so Im just going to be streight and put yes,no or possibly answers regards Lyon for all of them
A canny manager-No
Individual quality-No
A solid defence-Hell no
A big fan base-No
Pace-Not really
Leadership,experience mixed with youth-Not really
Togetherness-No
Strength in depth-Hell no
Belief and determination-No
Passion-Not really
Quality players-Not really
Class-No
Consistency-Hell no
tall,physical players-Yes(yayy!!1/14)Posted from
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Based on this Id say that a team of players that we could sign would be-
Rustu Recber
Clerc-Kjaer-Hyypia-Taiwo
Toulalan-Engelaar-De la Red
Affelay
Benzema-NihatPosted from
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or
Jaaskelainan
Clerc-Breno-Ooijer-Santon
Toulalan-Cana-Zyryanov
Gourcuff
Benzema VucinicPosted from
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again, what on earth makes you think a professional football club will ever in the history of football replace 10 first team players and bring in others?
it doesn’t happen, it shouldn’t happen, and it’ll never happen.
as for Lyons future, we must keep Lloris, Ederson, Pjanic, Toulalan, Makoun, Bodmer, Benzema and even Chelito if he keeps progressing.Posted from
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Sorry Id like to appologize for naming those two first 11 it was stupid and not necessary for the point I was trying to make.Obviously 9 or 10 first team players are not likely to be brought in to improve the team,and I actually wasnt naming the side Lyon shoulg buy,just a team Id see capable of winning the CL with players Lyon could have signed Im not saying Lyon should buy nine or ten players. One things for sure we need three or four players to come in the summer and Im not talking about the Fauberts of this world Im talking players who will come in and make a positive impact.(PS Bastos HAS to come he is the type of player we really lack)I think we need two new CB,Bastos(left wing,left back),playmaker and a striker or two.And if JMA sacks Puel like many people are expecting he will(stupid Aulas cant he see the squad isnt strong enough to better this years acheivements even with sir Alex at the helm,so Puel is a miracle man for this season IMO)then id say 1. Dick Advocaat 2.Manuel Pellegrini 3. Didier Deschamps 4.Jesualdo Ferreira 5.Louis Van Gaal
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Ronan, why are you defending Puel? Puel has a stronger squad than Perrin had. If you look at last years transfer period, we got more than we lost. Ok, we lost Coupet, but Lloris didn’t have a bad season and replaced him well.
I don’t think Puel needs to be defended. He deserves to be criticized. doesn’t mean I want him to be sacked, but I want him to have “balls” and try and play “winners” soccer.Posted from
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I disagree completly,last season we had Fred,Baros,Benzema in attack this season we have Benzema,Piquionne also last season we had BenArfa,Remy,Belhadj and Squillaci-my point is last season in my opinion Lyon were a better team. I would either like to see Puel sacked and a real manager brought in like Ferreira,Pellegrini,Advocaat,Deschamps or Van Gaal or I would like Puel to sign the players for the summer knowing that he is signing players to win the cl,and not let Aulas do the signings Puel command the signings and then see how we perform next year,when Puel knows his players and is fullt settled.
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“A canny manager – No”
Has any manager really had enough time at Lyon to show if he was “canny” or not? Le Guen and to a lesser extent Houllier seemed to show a bit of guile, but Perrin and Puel barely spent a season, so it’s hard to judge them. When Puel was signed I doubt you were saying it was terrible, and I think you were rather like a lot of people (in France, at least) who thought that if Puel had managed to build a strong Lille squad with barely no resources, he would be able to be a pretty impressive manager for Lyon.
My rating : 3/10“Individual quality – No”
Lloris? Toulalan? Benzema? I’d put Clerc up there too if he confirms his level. Benzema and Clerc can still improve, but Toulalan and Lloris are already making a solid case to being two of the best 10-20 in the world at their position. Sometimes I think you’re joking. Jaaskelainen instead of Lloris? I like the EPL, and I rate Jaaskelainen highly, but he’s a notch below Lloris and Mandanda. He’s more on par with Richert, Douchez or Landreau. Rüstü is an even bigger joke though. He’s been almost perpetually injured over the last 3 seasons. And he’s 35.
My rating : 7/10“A solid defence – Hell no”
Whilst Lyon’s defence isn’t one of the 5 meanest in Europe, it is a solid defence. How many defenders in France would be an improvement? Any from Bordeaux? From Marseille? from Paris? From Toulouse? From Rennes (if you answered Fanni, is he -really- better than Clerc)? Do AC Milan have a better defence? Do Fiorentina have a better defence? Valencia? Roma? Arsenal? Whilst Lyon’s defence isn’t outstanding like Man U, Chelsea, Liverpool or Barça’s have been this season, Lyon’s defence is one of the 20~ best in Europe easily.
My rating : 6/10“A big fan base – No”
Uh, what has this got to do with the price of strawberry jam? Monaco have about 50 supporters all in all. It didn’t stop them from getting to the CL Final in 2004. And again, what do you mean by “big fan base”? Do Chinese people who buy a Man U kit and only know Ronaldo count as “fans”? Even so, Lyon aren’t on par with Man U, Real Madrid and Juventus, but I doubt Lyon are lagging behind Marseille anymore, and I think only Bayern Munich in Germany has more support than Lyon. This is extremely biased though as a method, since clubs like Benfica have massive fanbases, and it doesn’t bring them any on-pitch success. Part of the problem is “do you win because you have a big fan-base, or do you have a big fan-base because you win”…
My rating : N/A“Pace – Not really”
Benzema is pretty swift on his feet, even though it isn’t Lyon’s strength. Lots of teams don’t score on counter-attacks though. Man U had -lots- of pace last season, but I don’t remember many CL goals on counter-attacks… Tevez scored on a corner at Gerland, Ronaldo scored off a many-rebounded placed attack at Old Trafford, Ronaldo scored against Roma with a header off a cross with four Man U players and about 7 Roma players in the box, and Rooney scored after Park headed a deep cross back into the box, again with 3 Man U players and 5 Roma players in the box. Tevez’s goal against Roma could be called a counter-attack, but it’s not really, since Roma had about 6 players back when Hargreaves crossed the ball. Scholes’ goal against Barça came from a bad clearance, and he struck a long shot. Not a counter-attack. In the final, Ronaldo’s goal wasn’t on a counter-attack either. Having pace is a useful attribute for a team, but to say a team can’t win without it is perhaps a bit too much. I didn’t notice Porto having much speed in 2004, nor AC Milan and Liverpool over the last few years for their bombing counter-attacks.
My rating : 5/10“Leadership,experience mixed with youth – Not really”
There’s experience mixed in with youth, but not much leadership. But they’re different categories in my opinion. Arsenal don’t have enough experience, Chelsea don’t have enough youth. Lyon have a good balance, with Benzema, Lloris, Ederson, Pjanic and Clerc being young, but Grosso, Cris, Boumsong, Govou, Toulalan and Juninho being far more experienced. Other players like Delgado, Makoun and Keita are “in-between”. With leadership there clearly is a problem though. Juninho seems to try a bit, but once he can’t make a difference he gets all hussy. Benzema doesn’t seem to have much leadership qualities, nor does Toulalan. Makoun, Keita, Delgado, Ederson, Pjanic are all too “new” to have any influence. Lloris is OK at motivating his defence, but I wouldn’t lend him the influence a Casillas or a Buffon can have over a whole team yet. Cris? Meh. Now and then he pulls of a good show of leadership, but he doesn’t seem to make it his trademark. And nobody else in defence seems very leader-y…
My rating (experience/youth) : 8/10
My rating (leadership) : 3/10“Togetherness – No”
And this means what? When Porto won the CL in 2004, the first thing most of the players said was that they wanted to leave. Deco went to Barcelona, Carvalho and Ferreira followed Mourinho and went to Chelsea, whilst Mendes, Alenichev, Thiago Silva and Derlei all went to find a bigger paycheck. Even last year, If Ronaldo was half as “together” as you seem to think players need to be to win something, he wouldn’t have had rumours sending him to Real Madrid -all- summer. What you might be meaning is “squad cohesion”, the fact that the team plays as a “bloc” and not just as individual players. Whilst Lyon have room to improve on this aspect, I wouldn’t rate it too badly. The ball does get around a fair share, Lyon are often able to vary their attacks, both in style (long balls or short balls, crosses or through balls, dribbles) and in area (wings, center, deep, by-line). Lyon’s playing level does seem to rest a bit “too much” on Benzema and Juninho, but they’re not the difference between a team that would win 3-0 and one that would lose 0-3, in my opinion. Toulalan, Makoun, Cris, Lloris provide a solid defensive solution that works quite independantly from the attack. Without wingers, Lyon aren’t brilliant either, but it’s worth remembering that Govou and Clerc are out injured, and when they return it could spice things up on the right wing, and allow Ederson/Delgado/Pjanic/Keita/Källstrom to have stronger competition on the left wing.
My rating (togetherness) : N/A
My rating (cohesion) : 6/10“Strength in depth – Hell no”
Again, I half-agree. Yes, without 3-4 key players Lyon loses a massive amount. But are Lyon’s reserves laughable? Do Bayern Munich have a better second string? Arsenal? Porto? Atletico Madrid? Villareal? Sure, Chelsea, Liverpool, Man U, Real, Barça, Inter, AC Milan and Juventus might have better “2nd XIs”, but I wouldn’t go so far as to say Lyon have -no- strength in depth. They’re simply less strong in depth.
My rating : 6/10Belief and determination – No
This is in my eyes one of Lyon’s greatest flaws, even if it is understandable. Lyon don’t seem to have either players who can rally the team around them nor a manager who can turn a team around either by shroud tactics or outstanding man-management. Even at a more individual level, few players at Lyon seem to have the belief that they can beat any player in a one-on-one. Benzema does it sometimes, but Lyon lack a player like Robben who no matter how often he will be stopped or lose the ball during a match continues to try to dribble his man.
My rating : 2/10“Passion – Not really”
I don’t really see what you mean here. Most teams have a tradition of “huddling” the goalscorer (Man U, Barça, Liverpool, AC Milan…), but even when Van der Sar runs the whole pitch to congratulate Scholes on his goal, I don’t know if it’s passion or just tradition that he bends to. I don’t think a team should cry or be on the verge of tears when they concede a goal. On the contrary, they should be fired up and ready to score. Players that love the game are useful, but players that can keep their calm even more. There’s nothing worse than a striker who becomes useless because he missed a sitter. Yes, it’s sad for him and he should be kicking himself for missing that shot, but if all he’s got in his mind is that miss, he’s not very useful. On the other hand, someone who is less attached to the game (or less attached to the club) will spend less time worrying about his miss and get back to playing. All in all, it can be useful, but only if it’s extremely well managed. If it’s not managed or badly managed, then it’s a handicap.
My rating : N/A“Quality players – Not really”
Since we covered “individuals” higher up, I guess you’re talking about the “bulk” of the team here. Well, yes, Lyon don’t have exceptional players outside their “stars”. However, as I pointed out so often before, whilst there are 5-8 clubs that can have Lassana Diarra and Tevez as “bulk of the team” players, Lyon aren’t the only one that can’t. How many clubs in Europe have better players once you remove the four best? I’d say at the most 1 in Portugal (Sporting were laughable against Bayern, so that might be 0 depending on how you rate Porto), 1 in Germany (Bayern, and I can’t see anyone else, not even Hoffenheim or Hambourg), 2-3 in Italy (Inter-AC-Juve, Roma are pretty lightweight once you remove Totti and De Rossi), 2-3 in Spain (I’d say 2, Barça-Real, but I guess some people would say Atletico without Forlan, Agüero and two other “stars” is better than Lyon without Benzema, Juni, la Toule and Lloris), and 3-4 in England (Chelsea, Liverpool, Man U and perhaps Arsenal). It’s not that bad, since Lyon are one of the 12-ish best when it comes to “bulk” players. I didn’t even look at France, because, well… Bordeaux without Chamak and Gourcuff? Marseille without Mandanda, Cana and Niang? Paris without Hoarau, Giuly, Makélélé and Sességnon? They’re not that great.
My rating : 6/10“Class – No”
Another “WTF” for me… Are Liverpool classy? Are Porto classy? Are Monaco classy? Defining “classy” is pretty difficult so I’m going to put forth the few clubs I consider genuinely “classy” by order of “class” : AC Milan, Juventus, Barcelona, Manchester United, Real Madrid. Part of what makes them classy is that they’ve got both a huge history of successes and a certain aura of calm in how they play. But this isn’t really relevant to success in the CL. Liverpool are in my opinion almost the contrary on the pitch, with last-minute pushes and a kind of forced defensiveness that covers a much more restless attacking mindset. Even off the pitch, with the Americans fighting with Rafa, fighting with Parry, and all the inevitable sagas each season, I don’t find them particularly classy. It hasn’t stopped them being very successful in the Champions’ League though.
My rating : N/A“Consistency – Hell no”
So your argument is that Lyon fails this because they can’t raise their game for big occasions? I thought that would be “inconsistency” (differing levels of playing quality). You can probably argue this both ways. Porto and Monaco reached the CL final by being supremely inconsistent (huge wins in the CL followed by much more mundane league matches, in Monaco’s case even a pretty average league finish), even Liverpool and AC Milan aren’t exactly consistent, due to their repeated difficulties to beat “small” teams, whilst they enjoy beating “big” teams. But the opposite is also true. Over the past two-three seasons, Man U have pretty much played on the same level regardless of who their opponent was, meaning Fulham and Bolton received 4-0 whippings, but Barça was barely edged out 1-0 over two legs. It’s more of a managerial choice than anything else, although it does require that the players be able to cope with the pressure and/or the level of consistency demanded by the coach. I just don’t see this as a clear positive or negative. Supremely inconsistent players are able to win matches alone one day, and then the next match not manage even as much as a pass. On the other hand, an extremely consistent player will never go on a crazy dribble and score a wonderful goal, but he’ll give a good pass 99 times out of 100, no matter when or where. Keita was brought in to bring a bit of flair, and the counterpart of this flair was that he was very inconsistent. Players like that need to be very well managed though, because once they lose belief in themselves (and I think he has) they become really bad.
My rating : N/A“Tall, physical players – Yes”
Nowadays, physical presence is obligatory. Without it, every corner and free kick would be a goal. But a team of 2m tall strongmen wouldn’t be perfect either, since smaller players often have better reflexes and ball control. Whilst it would be nice to have a perfect mix between Messi, Ronaldo, Michael Jordan, Usain Bolt and a couple of other top athletes at every position, that’s not going to happen soon. So all a team needs is a certain amount of balance between tall and small, between fast and slow, between strong and fragile. Toulalan, Makoun, Cris (and even Boumsong) are relatively strong and certainly tall enough. Benzema up front is strong and quite tall as well. On this aspect, I think Lyon are very good. Whilst not perfect (Boumsong-Cris isn’t an exceptionally strong and tall defensive partnership), it’s not a point Lyon are lacking at all.
My rating : 9/10It would be even nicer talking with you if you stopped throwing around random names Lyon should sign though. Kjaer hasn’t even played 20 games for Palermo, who are far from CL level, so even if he’s a very hot prospect I doubt he’d be the best buy Lyon can find. Hyypia is about 35 (like Rustu), so by the time he’s got to Lyon he’ll be needing a zimmerframe to move around. Just imagine how easily players like Briand are going to skin Hyypia if he’s in Lyon’s starting line-up. That’s one of the reasons why he’s no longer a starter for Liverpool. Taiwo makes enough mistakes each season for Marseille fans to want a change, so I don’t think he’d be a great improvement over Grosso. Engelaar has picked up two red cards so far this season, and the Bundesliga is more lenient than Ligue 1 when it comes to physical play. And he’s 29, so after 2-3 seasons I think you’ll be asking for a change (or less). De la Red? Why not. But again, he’s 23, only half-broke into Real Madrid’s starting XI thanks to Sneijder, Diarra and Robben being injured, as well as coming off a very good season with Getafe. He’s not a Benzema that has been missed, but just a more average midfielder like Ederson or Delgado. Afellay is the most interesting prospect on that list, but at 22 his list of achievements isn’t much longer than that of De la Red. He’s scored a lot this season, but only in the dutch league, and quite surprisingly, PSV are having their worst season in recent history, currently sitting 5th in the league… So whilst Afellay is a good goal-scorer, I wouldn’t feel confident giving him such an important role in the team. Lastly, Nihat? Nihat who hasn’t scored yet this season? Why not Rossi, who plays for the same club and has scored 15 goals in the double of matches? Nihat is probably better than Piquionne, but then again, so is Baros. That’s not a very convincing argument to bring back Baros, is it?
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wow, and you thought the team sucked against Barca…I can only imagine what you thought after they lost AT HOME at the weekend…
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the team is going through a rough spell Sarah. The form Lyon are in was created way before the Barcelona game. yesterday was basically the wake up call.
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Shazback – This is devotion. Still, I could read your post all along. Interesting points.
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shazback, you spent way too much time responding to ronan.
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Shazback-right,for starters when I say individual quality Im not talking the likes of Toulalan or Clerc Im talking players like Benzema,Robinho,Arshavin,Ronaldo,Messi players who can change a game with a shot,pass or trick thats what I meant by individual quality eg the last five CL winners-Man united-Ronaldo AC Milan-Kaka Barcelona-Ronaldinho Liverpool-Gerrard FC Porto-Deco there the type f match winners I mean not Clerc or Lloris.So Id rate your comment 2/10
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Now when you said this about Lyons defence “Do you think AC Milan,Roma,Arsenal,Valencia,Fiorentinas defence is better than Lyons ?” and also “Lyons defence is in the best 20 in Europe” that made me think WTF WTF WTF !!,now im no genious but Im thinking Oddo,Zambrotta,Bonera,Maldini,Favalli,Senderos,Nesta,Kaladze,Jankulovski,Thiago Silva,Felipe,Antonini well hay thats a much worse defence than Reveillere,Gassama,Clerc,Cris,Mensah,Boumsong,Faure,Kolodziejczak and Grosso. come on even a the most hard Lyon fan would say that AC defence is at least twice as good as ours never mind that they have much more quality and three more defenders than us.
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Roma- is Reveillere,Gassama,Clerc,Cris,Mensah,Boumsong,Faure,Kolodziejczak and Grosso better or as good as Panucci,Motta,Cicinho,Mexes,Loria,Juan,Diamoutene,Riise,Tonetto,Cassetti and thats excluding there young players as well Lyons defence I added two or three players who should really be in the reserves(Gassama,Faure,Kolodziejczak)take those three out and we are left with an amazing six average defenders-Fantastic so Im thinking Roma are better-I cant even be bothered to spell out Fiorentinas,Arsenals and Valencias defence but I know for a fact they are better. Regards Lyons defence being in the top twenty-Manchester United,Arsenal,Roma,Inter,Juve,AC,Real Madrids,Aston Villas,Liverpool,Chelsea,Man City,Villareal,Atletico,Porto,Bayern Munich,Werder Bremen,AZ,Valencia,Fiorentina and Fenerbahce defence are all better than ours so again Id say you were worong-one thing-NEVER complimant Lyons defence at the state it is in now because it as absolute Bollocks of a defence one of the worst in the CL,its not even in the top three of defences in ligue 1 if you ask me and that says a lot.Look man I cant comment on every paragraph you said but I appreciate your points and alot of your points made sense but one thing you cant deny is that if a club has all of those attributes they should be very,very good.peace.
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Ronan, your points aren’t really making much sense. Lyon played Fiorentina twice this season, and unless I’m mistaken, Lyon scored more goals than Fiorentina. Lyon were missing Clerc to injury (perhaps Fiorentina were also missing defenders, but I didn’t take note) as well as Grosso for the first game. How you can say Fiorentina’s defence is better than Lyon’s surprises me. The only explanation is that Benzema and Piquionne are miles ahead of Mutu and Gilardino as a strike-force, since they breached a supposedly “stronger” defence more times. But I thought we agreed that Piquionne was absolutely useless and Benzema wasn’t yet a great individual player…
Even other of your examples are pretty mystifying : Atletico? Didn’t they concede 6 goals against Barça at the Nou Camp? And 3 at home? I’m no math whiz, but 9 is generally accepted as a bigger number than 6. And this is with Clerc and Reveillere out for both matches against Barça. Perhaps Atletico had more injuries but I kind of doubt it. Lyon aren’t even one of the top 3 defences in Ligue 1 even though only Rennes and Toulouse have conceded fewer goals? And neither Rennes nor Toulouse have had injuries like Clerc, Reveillere and Grosso? There’s always a part of personal appreciation when it comes to judging things, but how do you say Villareal and Valencia have so much better defences than Lyon when Villareal lost 2-1 at home to Barça, and Valencia lost 4-0 at the Nou Camp (yes, one less goal conceded, but given Keita’s injury time goal it’s not a huge difference)? Manchester City? A 1-0 loss to Midtjylland? 2 goals conceded in 2 games against Omonia? 2 goals conceded against Twente (who went on to lose 4-0 against PSG)? Who lost 3-1 against Racing Santander? 3 goals conceded against Copenhagen in 2 games (who had lost 3-1 to Saint-Etienne)? Even AC Milan haven’t got that great a defensive record : 2 goals conceded against Portsmouth, 2 goals conceded against Wolfsburg, 3 goals in 2 games against Werder, and even if Serie A is better than Ligue 1, they’ve conceded 7 more goals than Lyon in as many games…
But what takes the cake is Fenerbahce. Really, you couldn’t do better if you were doing it on purpose. Have you seen Fenerbahce play this season? (Hint : they’re really bad) Champions’ League? 11 goals conceded in 6 games (5 vs Arsenal, 5 vs Porto, 1 vs Dynamo Kyiv), and 25 goals conceded in 24 games in the Turkish Superlig. They’re only the 6th best defence in Turkey for f**k’s sake! To say they’re better than Lyon is pretty ridiculous, IMO. Lyon have had major defensive problems (Clerc, Reveillere, Grosso and Mensah’s injuries) and they still did better than Fenerbahce. I mean, whilst we’re at it, why don’t you say Lyon should go and sign Puygrenier? A player that’s not good enough for Zenit and isn’t even setting Bolton alight must be a great buy!
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Yer but Shazback you cant just look at the results of a few games and then say if a defence is better, Barcelona may have been on fire against Atletico,while they were poor and timid,when we played them are defence could have been playing well and Barcas playing shit-I am looking at the defenders they have not the results they have got and on paper those team defence is better. Otherewise I could start saying would Atletico conceed three to Rennes,would AC Milan conceed 5 to Barca,would Valencia lose 0-3 to Rangers ?Would Roma conceed 2 to Auxerre at Stadio Olimpico ?In fact my point is proved here-Lyon conceeded the most goals of teams that had qualified for the last 16(ps 3 or 4 teams who finished bottom of the group conceeded fewer than Lyon in second Bate,Celtic and Anorthosis all conced less than 10 goals)
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Oh and I forgot to mention Cluj who conceeded 9,so thats four teams who had better goals against records and they finished bottom,im not even going to bother to mention the third placed teams.
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With your theory your trying to say that say a backline of Gassama-Faure-Boumsong-Kolodziejczak lost 2-1 to Barca and then a backline of Ramos-Pepe-Cannavaro-Heinzr lost 3-2 youd reckon the first defence was a stronger defence ?
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“In fact my point is proved here-Lyon conceeded the most goals of teams that had qualified for the last 16(ps 3 or 4 teams who finished bottom of the group conceeded fewer than Lyon in second Bate,Celtic and Anorthosis all conced less than 10 goals)”
So Sporting had a better defence than Lyon because they conceded 12 goals in 2 games against Bayern Munich whilst Lyon conceded 4 in 2 games?
Valencia might not concede 3 goals against Rangers, but Werder Bremen and Sporting Lisbon both lost 2-0 to them last season.
As I said before, you can’t judge a defence just by looking at individualities. Who is better? Sergio Ramos or Fabio Aurelio? Heinze or Dossena? Cannavaro or Carragher? Pepe or Skrtel? I don’t think I really need to point out that Liverpool smacked Real Madrid out of the Champions’ League. Real Madrid had better individuals, but Liverpool had a better team. By the way, was Monaco’s defence CL-worthy? (Evra certainly was, but Rodriguez? Givet? Ibarra?)
Roma, by the way, are the 13th best defence in Italy. 37 goals conceded in 28 games. They’ve conceded 4 goals against Inter (at home), 3 goals against Atlanta, Catania, Genoa, Inter, Palermo and Udinese (all away), and 2 goals against Cagliari, AC Milan (both at home), Juventus, Reggina and Sampdoria (all three away). It wouldn’t be beyond them to concede two goals against Auxerre. After all, they did manage to concede seven against Man U a couple of years ago…
To finish this off, yes, I do think that if a defence of Gassama-Faure-Boumsong-Kolodzeijczak played together as Lyon’s first choice defence regularly and held Barça to a 2-1 win, they’d be a better defence than Real’s who lost 3-2. If you think a defence is just about the names on the paper, why is Piqué being more and more involved with Barça’s starting defence? Why is Evans able to fit in to Man U’s defence so seemlessly (and no, he’s neither as good as Ferdinand nor Vidic yet, but he played an important role in VDS’ 11 clean sheet run)? How can Rafael have taken control of the starting right-back spot at Man U whilst he’s only 18 and Brown has two Champions’ League winners medals? If a defence was all about the names you put in it, Real should bring back Roberto Carlos and Hierro. Along with Cannavaro and Salgado, that could very well be one of the biggest trophy hauls a defence ever had : 15 Ligas, 2 Serie A, 2 Brazilian Leagues, 8 Champions’ Leagues, 1 UEFA Cup, 2 Copa America, 2 World Cups, 1 Confedration Cup, 1 Ballon d’Or and 1 FIFA World player of the year. Add to that Casillas’ 4 Ligas, 2 Champions’ Leagues and 1 European Championship and I’m at loss to find any major award that defence hasn’t won. But they’d be pretty crap. Salgado is 33 and no longer that good, Hierro is 40 and retired for 3 seasons, and Roberto Carlos and Fabio Cannavaro’s physical form is waning.
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Shazback-these players you mention arent just”names”-how do you think they get there star studded reputation,by being crap ?I dont think so. And yes there are many solid defenders who are not star namea and play in Belgium for example but the thing is Gassama-Faure-Boumsong-Kolodiejczak arent star names or good unheard of defenders. What you have being saying our defence is good but just not heard of which is a crap areguement because there crap and theres no cover for them either
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