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	<title>Comments on: Let&#8217;s Talk About Money</title>
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	<description>News from Olympique Lyonnais Football Club</description>
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		<title>By: 2006/2007 Financial Results - OL Land/New Stadium - The Offside - Olympique Lyonnais French Football Blog</title>
		<link>http://lyon.theoffside.com/team-news/lets-talk-about-money.html#comment-3057</link>
		<dc:creator>2006/2007 Financial Results - OL Land/New Stadium - The Offside - Olympique Lyonnais French Football Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2007 06:28:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lyon.theoffside.com/team-news/lets-talk-about-money.html#comment-3057</guid>
		<description>[...] it is - and where it will be in the next few years (read a more thorough overview on club finances here). There are no rich investors to aid Lyon in their quest for global domination. Every penny the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] it is &#8211; and where it will be in the next few years (read a more thorough overview on club finances here). There are no rich investors to aid Lyon in their quest for global domination. Every penny the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: What Will It Take For Lyon to Become a Big Club? - OL Groupe - The Offside - Olympique Lyonnais French Football Blog</title>
		<link>http://lyon.theoffside.com/team-news/lets-talk-about-money.html#comment-2909</link>
		<dc:creator>What Will It Take For Lyon to Become a Big Club? - OL Groupe - The Offside - Olympique Lyonnais French Football Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2007 15:24:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lyon.theoffside.com/team-news/lets-talk-about-money.html#comment-2909</guid>
		<description>[...] 5 - Big European clubs attract &#8220;stars.&#8221; There&#8217;s no point in denying that Lyon can&#8217;t attract big players. But there are good reasons for this. First of all, the wage problem. Though Lyon pay the highest wages in France, they can&#8217;t compete with Spanish, Italian, and English clubs because of high French taxes (read more on that here). [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 5 &#8211; Big European clubs attract &#8220;stars.&#8221; There&#8217;s no point in denying that Lyon can&#8217;t attract big players. But there are good reasons for this. First of all, the wage problem. Though Lyon pay the highest wages in France, they can&#8217;t compete with Spanish, Italian, and English clubs because of high French taxes (read more on that here). [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Cruz</title>
		<link>http://lyon.theoffside.com/team-news/lets-talk-about-money.html#comment-889</link>
		<dc:creator>Cruz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jun 2007 03:18:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lyon.theoffside.com/team-news/lets-talk-about-money.html#comment-889</guid>
		<description>One of the reasons that Monaco is the club most able to attract stars (Morientes, Saviola, if you can call him that) is because they have a lot of tax benefits. I wish Lyon could move to Monaco for that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the reasons that Monaco is the club most able to attract stars (Morientes, Saviola, if you can call him that) is because they have a lot of tax benefits. I wish Lyon could move to Monaco for that.</p>
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		<title>By: Inara</title>
		<link>http://lyon.theoffside.com/team-news/lets-talk-about-money.html#comment-878</link>
		<dc:creator>Inara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jun 2007 19:54:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lyon.theoffside.com/team-news/lets-talk-about-money.html#comment-878</guid>
		<description>Thanks so much for the info, Guignol, Jan! I know I gripe about about France&#039;s regulations, but the outcome is much cleaner football! It goes to show that the only scandal people still talk about is Tapie&#039;s match fixing, which was over 14 years ago! 

Jan brings up a good question about takeovers. My understanding what that a rich person could buy out a person&#039;s stakes in a club but that it doesn&#039;t really happen. It almost happened to Marseille but then financial irregularities in the buyer were discovered, nothing came of it. Plus, I can&#039;t see any billionaires interested in an L1 club since the whole point of such purchases is to make profits, and there are hardly every profits in France.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks so much for the info, Guignol, Jan! I know I gripe about about France&#8217;s regulations, but the outcome is much cleaner football! It goes to show that the only scandal people still talk about is Tapie&#8217;s match fixing, which was over 14 years ago! </p>
<p>Jan brings up a good question about takeovers. My understanding what that a rich person could buy out a person&#8217;s stakes in a club but that it doesn&#8217;t really happen. It almost happened to Marseille but then financial irregularities in the buyer were discovered, nothing came of it. Plus, I can&#8217;t see any billionaires interested in an L1 club since the whole point of such purchases is to make profits, and there are hardly every profits in France.</p>
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		<title>By: Jan</title>
		<link>http://lyon.theoffside.com/team-news/lets-talk-about-money.html#comment-875</link>
		<dc:creator>Jan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jun 2007 16:47:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lyon.theoffside.com/team-news/lets-talk-about-money.html#comment-875</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s interesting and good to learn. The counterpart to associations loi 1901 in Germany is a GV (gemeinnütziger verein), but all sports clubs are EVs (eingetragener verein) which the dictionary tells me would be a membership corporation. Some big football clubs like Schalke, Hamburg and Stuttgart are all EVs while a lot of other clubs decided to split the club into two during the 90s. The core club remains an EV while the mens football team is turned into an AG (aktiegesellschaft), a stock corporation or simply a corporation. This gives some more freedom for business decisions. Yet there is the 50percent plus 1 rule that says that 51% of the corporation has to be held by the EV. That means you can&#039;t takeover and own a Bundesliga club, and you can&#039;t hold more than 49% of the stock in the mens football team if the club decided to outsource it, thus you can&#039;t take over that part of the club either. That&#039;s the reason why there aren&#039;t any Abramovichs, Berlusconis etc. in German football. 

And those rules as guignol pointed out weren&#039;t made to hamper the clubs. Yet with the recent wave of EPL takeovers, the gap that has already been there through more lucrative TV deals has widened even more by the money of those investors.

Although I&#039;m still unsure about one thing: a French football club could potentially be taken over completely by an investor, right? But it hasn&#039;t happened yet because there are rich families who hold stocks in the clubs and won&#039;t give those away?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s interesting and good to learn. The counterpart to associations loi 1901 in Germany is a GV (gemeinnütziger verein), but all sports clubs are EVs (eingetragener verein) which the dictionary tells me would be a membership corporation. Some big football clubs like Schalke, Hamburg and Stuttgart are all EVs while a lot of other clubs decided to split the club into two during the 90s. The core club remains an EV while the mens football team is turned into an AG (aktiegesellschaft), a stock corporation or simply a corporation. This gives some more freedom for business decisions. Yet there is the 50percent plus 1 rule that says that 51% of the corporation has to be held by the EV. That means you can&#8217;t takeover and own a Bundesliga club, and you can&#8217;t hold more than 49% of the stock in the mens football team if the club decided to outsource it, thus you can&#8217;t take over that part of the club either. That&#8217;s the reason why there aren&#8217;t any Abramovichs, Berlusconis etc. in German football. </p>
<p>And those rules as guignol pointed out weren&#8217;t made to hamper the clubs. Yet with the recent wave of EPL takeovers, the gap that has already been there through more lucrative TV deals has widened even more by the money of those investors.</p>
<p>Although I&#8217;m still unsure about one thing: a French football club could potentially be taken over completely by an investor, right? But it hasn&#8217;t happened yet because there are rich families who hold stocks in the clubs and won&#8217;t give those away?</p>
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		<title>By: guignol</title>
		<link>http://lyon.theoffside.com/team-news/lets-talk-about-money.html#comment-871</link>
		<dc:creator>guignol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jun 2007 13:28:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lyon.theoffside.com/team-news/lets-talk-about-money.html#comment-871</guid>
		<description>Laurie &#124;  June 22nd, 2007: &quot;Do you know what the ownership structure of most other French teams is?&quot;

i&#039;m making a second post to treat this subject separately.

sports clubs, including the ones our kids play in, are almost entirely &quot;associations loi 1901&quot;... non-profit organizations. for that matter, so are local gardening clubs or sewing circles! until 1975 this was the only organization possible for sports clubs, and today about a third of L1 clubs still hold this status.

nowadays, if payroll is over 5M€ or turnstile receipts over 7.5M€, clubs must create a commercial corporation... either an an SAOS (société anonyme à objet sportif) or an SASP (société anonyme sportive professionnelle). the difference between these? an SAOS may not distribute dividends or pay its officers, and the majority of the shares must be held by the association 1901. an SASP does not have the same constraints, and as such may be a profitmaking entity, but it still must conform to specific regulations; they may not hold shares in another sports society (to avoid conflict of sporting interest) and must have their accounts overseen by the DNCG. note that none of this is in the objective of hampering topflight football clubs, but for assuring honest sports competition in general, and in light of scandals elsewhere (officials on italy, &quot;suitcases&quot; in spain...) it&#039;s far from a bad thing in itself!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Laurie |  June 22nd, 2007: &#8220;Do you know what the ownership structure of most other French teams is?&#8221;</p>
<p>i&#8217;m making a second post to treat this subject separately.</p>
<p>sports clubs, including the ones our kids play in, are almost entirely &#8220;associations loi 1901&#8243;&#8230; non-profit organizations. for that matter, so are local gardening clubs or sewing circles! until 1975 this was the only organization possible for sports clubs, and today about a third of L1 clubs still hold this status.</p>
<p>nowadays, if payroll is over 5M€ or turnstile receipts over 7.5M€, clubs must create a commercial corporation&#8230; either an an SAOS (société anonyme à objet sportif) or an SASP (société anonyme sportive professionnelle). the difference between these? an SAOS may not distribute dividends or pay its officers, and the majority of the shares must be held by the association 1901. an SASP does not have the same constraints, and as such may be a profitmaking entity, but it still must conform to specific regulations; they may not hold shares in another sports society (to avoid conflict of sporting interest) and must have their accounts overseen by the DNCG. note that none of this is in the objective of hampering topflight football clubs, but for assuring honest sports competition in general, and in light of scandals elsewhere (officials on italy, &#8220;suitcases&#8221; in spain&#8230;) it&#8217;s far from a bad thing in itself!</p>
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		<title>By: guignol</title>
		<link>http://lyon.theoffside.com/team-news/lets-talk-about-money.html#comment-868</link>
		<dc:creator>guignol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jun 2007 12:14:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lyon.theoffside.com/team-news/lets-talk-about-money.html#comment-868</guid>
		<description>very important proviso from matt about the total cost of a player consists largely of payroll contributions other than taxes.

i&#039;d like to add that the OVERALL situation in france is not so different from other european countries, but these make a special case for athletes (which doesn&#039;t stop most F1 drivers or ATP players from electing domicile in monaco!) which, in light of how much money footballers make, seems obscene to me. all in all, and especially as concerns the DNCG, i think football would be better off if everyone did things the french way! après nous, le déluge de pognon!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>very important proviso from matt about the total cost of a player consists largely of payroll contributions other than taxes.</p>
<p>i&#8217;d like to add that the OVERALL situation in france is not so different from other european countries, but these make a special case for athletes (which doesn&#8217;t stop most F1 drivers or ATP players from electing domicile in monaco!) which, in light of how much money footballers make, seems obscene to me. all in all, and especially as concerns the DNCG, i think football would be better off if everyone did things the french way! après nous, le déluge de pognon!</p>
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		<title>By: Mat</title>
		<link>http://lyon.theoffside.com/team-news/lets-talk-about-money.html#comment-828</link>
		<dc:creator>Mat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jun 2007 16:00:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lyon.theoffside.com/team-news/lets-talk-about-money.html#comment-828</guid>
		<description>Great Article!
To complete your links, a report from the French Senate (in french but there is maybe a translation) about the impact of taxation on the french soccer clubs compared to their european concurrents:
http://www.senat.fr/rap/r03-336/r03-33652.html
The problem is not so much on the income tax (except compare to UK, even if this report doesn&#039;t take in account the last reforms), but on the social withdrawals... and it seems pretty hard and unfair to give a special social and medical status for the soccer players (and probably by extension to every sportsman...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great Article!<br />
To complete your links, a report from the French Senate (in french but there is maybe a translation) about the impact of taxation on the french soccer clubs compared to their european concurrents:<br />
<a href="http://www.senat.fr/rap/r03-336/r03-33652.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.senat.fr/rap/r03-336/r03-33652.html</a><br />
The problem is not so much on the income tax (except compare to UK, even if this report doesn&#8217;t take in account the last reforms), but on the social withdrawals&#8230; and it seems pretty hard and unfair to give a special social and medical status for the soccer players (and probably by extension to every sportsman&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Inara</title>
		<link>http://lyon.theoffside.com/team-news/lets-talk-about-money.html#comment-824</link>
		<dc:creator>Inara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jun 2007 18:52:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lyon.theoffside.com/team-news/lets-talk-about-money.html#comment-824</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Jo:&lt;/b&gt; I too can&#039;t ever imagine France lowering their taxes for sports players, as much as I&#039;d like them too for Lyon&#039;s sake. But it does against the ideals of the country. 

Anyway, France isn&#039;t football crazy like the rest of Europe. With tennis, rugby, and cycling taking up a big portion of the sports market, football is in many ways still growing in popularity. Other than in Marseille, which is a footballing town more than any other in France (also weird, that Paris has only one professional football club). France is kind of like the US in this respect. 

&lt;b&gt;Djag:&lt;/b&gt; Haha, true. In all the griping we do about poorer salaries in France, footballers are still pretty rich. I remember an interview Belhadj gave a few months ago, when he was still with Sedan - his car is the latest Mercedes on the market, and he has another one too. French footballers definitely aren&#039;t paupers if they are in L1. 


&lt;b&gt;Thierry:&lt;/b&gt; As much as I gripe about taxes, you&#039;re right, France wouldn&#039;t be France without its taxation. You can&#039;t really argue against a system that takes from the rich and gives to the poor, so to speak. 

&lt;b&gt;Thomas:&lt;/b&gt; I got tired of posting rumors and thought it was time to do a more substantial post. And footbusiness seemed like a good place to start!

&lt;b&gt;Brian:&lt;/b&gt; Buying a large stake in a French football club is really having maybe 10 or 15 percent of the shares. No one person truly owns a huge part of a club. Even Aulas and Dreyfuss, the majority shareholders of Lyon and OM, own only a third of the total shares of their clubs, the remainder owned by smaller groups.

So for the most part, French football clubs tend to stay &quot;family run,&quot; that is, owned by the same group of people for a long time, who appoint presidents and managers as needed.  

However, this past year, Robert Louis Dreyfuss did put up his Marseille shares for sale, and there was a guy interested. But then the DNCG got involved, and it turned out that buyer didn&#039;t have all the money available, blah blah. So while the cost of buying a French club is cheaper, it&#039;s more difficult because of all the oversight (the Glazer takeover could never have happened in France).  

&lt;b&gt;Jan:&lt;/b&gt; I can believe that the Netherlands have a smaller TV audience, but I would think Portugal would have a larger football audience. In any case, without broadcasting, France and Germany would be even further behind, so I&#039;m grateful. In Lyon&#039;s case, CL money is an important addition to the club&#039;s budget. 

&lt;b&gt;Corey: &lt;/b&gt;I think at this point, it&#039;s useless to hope to compete with the big clubs financially. All Lyon can do is do well in Europe and increasing their income. Hopefully one day, a player won&#039;t mind earning slightly less at Lyon. Let&#039;s hope. 

&lt;b&gt;Laurie:&lt;/b&gt; Tequila strangely clarifies my thoughts. :P 

I described club ownership in my response to Brian, above. Aulas owns (I think, I have to check) a 32 percent share in OL Groupe. Pathe (owned by Jerome Seydoux, the brother of Lille&#039;s president), is the second majority shareholder, who owns 31 percent. Another 20 percent is owned by smaller companies, and the remaining shares were the ones recently sold on the stock market to be owned by individuals. 

And I agree, I think the Offside is a great way to make people interested in a club. If I was able to convince just one person to sit down and watch a Lyon game, all the long hours of blogging will have finally paid off. 

PS. It&#039;s awesome that you have a double degree in finance and in French football, both of which probably come in more handy than what I&#039;ll get my degree in (virology, of all things). 

&lt;b&gt;Julien:&lt;/b&gt; I&#039;m glad you enjoyed it. I know I always gripe about Lyon&#039;s finances, so I thought maybe I should post some information about it. It was also easier writing this because I remember reading a lot of this stuff last February, when Lyon first floated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Jo:</b> I too can&#8217;t ever imagine France lowering their taxes for sports players, as much as I&#8217;d like them too for Lyon&#8217;s sake. But it does against the ideals of the country. </p>
<p>Anyway, France isn&#8217;t football crazy like the rest of Europe. With tennis, rugby, and cycling taking up a big portion of the sports market, football is in many ways still growing in popularity. Other than in Marseille, which is a footballing town more than any other in France (also weird, that Paris has only one professional football club). France is kind of like the US in this respect. </p>
<p><b>Djag:</b> Haha, true. In all the griping we do about poorer salaries in France, footballers are still pretty rich. I remember an interview Belhadj gave a few months ago, when he was still with Sedan &#8211; his car is the latest Mercedes on the market, and he has another one too. French footballers definitely aren&#8217;t paupers if they are in L1. </p>
<p><b>Thierry:</b> As much as I gripe about taxes, you&#8217;re right, France wouldn&#8217;t be France without its taxation. You can&#8217;t really argue against a system that takes from the rich and gives to the poor, so to speak. </p>
<p><b>Thomas:</b> I got tired of posting rumors and thought it was time to do a more substantial post. And footbusiness seemed like a good place to start!</p>
<p><b>Brian:</b> Buying a large stake in a French football club is really having maybe 10 or 15 percent of the shares. No one person truly owns a huge part of a club. Even Aulas and Dreyfuss, the majority shareholders of Lyon and OM, own only a third of the total shares of their clubs, the remainder owned by smaller groups.</p>
<p>So for the most part, French football clubs tend to stay &#8220;family run,&#8221; that is, owned by the same group of people for a long time, who appoint presidents and managers as needed.  </p>
<p>However, this past year, Robert Louis Dreyfuss did put up his Marseille shares for sale, and there was a guy interested. But then the DNCG got involved, and it turned out that buyer didn&#8217;t have all the money available, blah blah. So while the cost of buying a French club is cheaper, it&#8217;s more difficult because of all the oversight (the Glazer takeover could never have happened in France).  </p>
<p><b>Jan:</b> I can believe that the Netherlands have a smaller TV audience, but I would think Portugal would have a larger football audience. In any case, without broadcasting, France and Germany would be even further behind, so I&#8217;m grateful. In Lyon&#8217;s case, CL money is an important addition to the club&#8217;s budget. </p>
<p><b>Corey: </b>I think at this point, it&#8217;s useless to hope to compete with the big clubs financially. All Lyon can do is do well in Europe and increasing their income. Hopefully one day, a player won&#8217;t mind earning slightly less at Lyon. Let&#8217;s hope. </p>
<p><b>Laurie:</b> Tequila strangely clarifies my thoughts. <img src='http://lyon.theoffside.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif' alt=':P' class='wp-smiley' />  </p>
<p>I described club ownership in my response to Brian, above. Aulas owns (I think, I have to check) a 32 percent share in OL Groupe. Pathe (owned by Jerome Seydoux, the brother of Lille&#8217;s president), is the second majority shareholder, who owns 31 percent. Another 20 percent is owned by smaller companies, and the remaining shares were the ones recently sold on the stock market to be owned by individuals. </p>
<p>And I agree, I think the Offside is a great way to make people interested in a club. If I was able to convince just one person to sit down and watch a Lyon game, all the long hours of blogging will have finally paid off. </p>
<p>PS. It&#8217;s awesome that you have a double degree in finance and in French football, both of which probably come in more handy than what I&#8217;ll get my degree in (virology, of all things). </p>
<p><b>Julien:</b> I&#8217;m glad you enjoyed it. I know I always gripe about Lyon&#8217;s finances, so I thought maybe I should post some information about it. It was also easier writing this because I remember reading a lot of this stuff last February, when Lyon first floated.</p>
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		<title>By: Jo</title>
		<link>http://lyon.theoffside.com/team-news/lets-talk-about-money.html#comment-823</link>
		<dc:creator>Jo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jun 2007 18:00:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lyon.theoffside.com/team-news/lets-talk-about-money.html#comment-823</guid>
		<description>French government is not socialist, Corey :)
It&#039;s a liberalist one. But that even was the case before the presidential election... Wait &amp; see, but I don&#039;t think that making lower taxes for football players will be a priority here... !</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>French government is not socialist, Corey <img src='http://lyon.theoffside.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
It&#8217;s a liberalist one. But that even was the case before the presidential election&#8230; Wait &amp; see, but I don&#8217;t think that making lower taxes for football players will be a priority here&#8230; !</p>
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