

Valencia Now Want Juninho
By: Inara | August 24th, 2007
Valencia’s sporting director, Miguel Angel Ruiz, is like a bad case of herpes. He just keeps coming back at the most importune moments.
For the La Liga illiterate out there, Valencia have been trying really hard to get a creative midfielder. It’s almost as comical as Lyon’s search for a striker.
Cesar at the Valencia Offside has all the details, but basically, they first tried to get Wesley Sneijder, then Lucho Gonzales, then Kim Kallstrom, then Borja Oubina, then Alberto Aquilani, then Manuel Fernandes, and then Rafael Van der Vaart, all the while trying to avoid getting Javier Casquero (who they might not get either).
The reason why none of these deals ever worked out? Bad negotiation tactics.
I’ve written about Valencia’s bungled pursuit of Kallstrom here and here, which ended when Aulas said €25m or no deal. Predictably, Valencia backed off in the hopes that Kallstrom would force the deal, which he didn’t. Instead, he extended his contract with Lyon.
And that was supposed to be it between Valencia and Lyon.
But, if the Spanish press is to be believed, Valencia have switched their attention to Juninho as a short term solution, at least until they can bring someone like Van der Vaart to the club.
While no spring chicken, he’s what I consider a luxury player, someone who makes a statement, a player a team can afford only when they have an equally talented roster, sort of like Andrea Pirlo (but in Juninho’s case, without the huge cost). He’s the type of player that ages well, his style doesn’t rely on super fitness, so at 32 I think he’ll play well until 35 if he can stay away from injuries.
Paul Le Guen adopted the 4-3-3 specifically to bring out the best in Juninho. He doesn’t have a lot of pace, nor is he particularly defensive, so his midfield partners need to be able to compensate (last year it was Tiago and Toulalan). His work rate is superb, and he can play for the full 90+ minutes without a drop in form, though we’ll have to see if that holds true this year. And he is all the more attractive because he just received his French passport.
For any club looking for a cheap, short term, and terrific buy, he would be it.

Talk about aging well.
Except he’s not cheap. Hahaha.
Apparently Lyon are asking for €10m, which seems reasonable to me, but I’m a Lyon fan whose sun, moon, and stars are represented by Juninho. He’s priceless, really.
To other people, that much money for a 32 year old is probably rather steep.
But let’s ignore the finances for a moment and talk about the plausibility of this transfer, should it prove to be real and not a figment of some reporter’s imagination.
Juninho recently signed a contract extension last May, but events since then may have altered his future plans at the Gerland. First off, he’s facing competition from Mathieu Bodmer, and Perrin has adopted the 4-4-2, which favors Kallstrom-Toulalan in the midfield. Perrin doesn’t want to deviate from that formation, so he will try to put Juninho somewhere else.
Which basically makes him sound like an unwanted decorative object that has to be wedged in between the important stuff.
Also, one of Juninho’s biggest regrets is that he’s only ever played for two real clubs (Vasco and Lyon), and because he’s in the French league, he’s missed out on the recognition that he surely deserves. However, he’s at that age where he’s thinking about his retirement, and right now, he holds a considerable amount of influence at Lyon and is considered to be the club’s “star” player.
To give that up for the uncertainty of a new team is pretty risky, because if he flops at Valencia, it’s not like he’ll have another chance elsewhere. But there has been a lot of infighting in the team, and recently Juninho handed in his captain’s armband because of the comments Sidney Govou made about him in the press. For Juni to give up captaincy (he was very proud of it) indicates that he’s quite upset.

He’s no longer happy at the Gerland.
But if he really wants to leave, I don’t think I would begrudge him that, because after six years of sublime service to Lyon, he deserves to make one last move, kind of like how Arsenal let Thierry Henry go. After all he’s done, it wouldn’t be fair to hold him against his will.
Lyon would be left with five midfielders (two DMs, three AMs), which is a bit light, but I’m sure Perrin can find some way to manage (in fact, I demand that Lyon immediately purchase Renato Augusto). But again, I’m not sure how serious Valencia’s interest is in Juninho, because Valencia are interested in just about everybody these days.
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Malouda moved for 20M€, so I doubt that Rosella will let Mancini even talk for less than 20M€.
After all, he did reject a 19M€ bid by Liverpool in June, so a 15M€ deal sounds a bit stupid only days from the end of the window.
If Aulas is serious, he should not be flapping at Mancini, but rather try to use his 15M€ well :
-Bresciano could be lured for 5 to 8M€, since he almost left Palermo for Man City for 5M£.
-Riquelme could be a one-season solution.
-Nihat is probably availible… 9 games a season doesn’t keep many players or clubs happy.
-Julian de Guzman could double up in midfield in a cost-effective manner.
-Kahlenberg could be taken from Auxerre.
…I still hope Gudjohnsen is on the tabs, because I think that 4M€ and future incentives could be enough to get Barça to drop him.
The people who said that Diarra+15M€ was a bad deal for Malouda are definitively mad.
Dédé should have been bought instead of Belhadj and Grosso (IMO).…
Honestly, it’s far too late in the transfer window to expect any great deals. All the good loan deals (Sahin on loan at Feyenoord…) are gone, and most teams have finished their buying-selling manoeuvres… So Lyon are going to have to cough up or not get anyone.
Silly Aulas not going for a striker right from the start as Perrin asked for.
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16m and he’s still in Rome
http://www.goal.com/fr/Articolo.aspx?ContenutoId=394157
If he was only going to bring 16m I don’t know why he came.
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He’s negotiating. No one ever starts at the asking price unless it’s Chelsea.
Damn, it’s stupid to make Mancini the club’s biggest transfer. And he’ll probably be one of the highest earners at the club, near Juni, Grosso, and Govou.
Also, if Mancini comes (and I’m assuming he has a Brazilian passport), then Lyon will have used up their 4 + 1 extra-comm spots (unless Fabio Santos leaves and until Cris gets his Portuguese passport).
Whatever happened to Ante Rukavina? I liked him!
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I didn’t read the full link before I saw it, but something else had said “up to 16m” – that’s why I mentioned it. And you hit the nail on the head earlier – he’s a better Keita. Makes no sense (he was decent as an emergency striker, but not that decent).
Oh, and maybe Aulas took the non-extension talks as a hint, allowing him to swoop in. But Ferrari’s agent just leaked word that Roma had asked to give them time after initial talks went well so they could tie up more difficult acquisitions (presumably Cicinho). It looks like they did the same with Mancini, whose initial talks went much better than Ferrari’s.
The one worry about all this is Mancini has been out since mid-July with the “flu.” That’s a hell of a flu in the dog days of summer. Looks very suspicious.
And I think Mancini may have an Italian passport. If not, he should soon. He’s been in the country 5 years, though not that that means anything. I’m blood and it still takes 12+ months to process mine.
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Well, Sylvain Wiltord had the stomach flu all summer, and look how that turned out.
I have faith in Aulas and Lacombe, and if they think we really need Mancini, I’ll live. But that will hold back Hatem Ben Arfa, and 20m out of Lyon’s pocket had better take us to the CL finals. Because that will bring Lyon’s total spending close to 70 million since last summer.
Now, I can’t imagine Mancini wanting to come to Lyon because first of all, it’s not like he’s taking a step up, and also, if he’s marrying a Roman girl…And his chances for the Brazilian NT are about the same at either club.
So if Mancini does come (again, I think it’s unlikely), either Aulas is offering a lot more money than Roma, Roma isn’t anxious to keep him, Totti isn’t being nice to him, or he just has REALLY good memories of the Gerland.
Or maybe he just wants to hang out with Reveillere.
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Mancini is overrated and not worth more than the 15 million Aulas offered. I would lose a lot of respect for Lyon if they make this deal because normally they get the best players, but Mancini won’t do anything to be worth his price. And no way Mancini is worth more than Malouda.
And Inara, Chris, I disagree. Keita is better than Mancini. Mancini scored one amazing goal and suddenly his value tripled. I would say Roma owe Lyon for making their player a star.
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and I’m not even a Lyon fan (Toulouse follower) but I like the way Aulas takes care of his club and for the good of Ligeu 1, I don’t want Lyon to waste their money. French football is poor enough already.
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Matthew, I’m guessing you haven’t seen much – or any – of Mancini. Offensively he is capable of the spectacular moment as well as disappearing, as everyone knows. But he is a dynamic attacking force to say the least, as well as being a converted defender – which everyone forgets. He can hold his own on both ends. Much much better than Keita (who is overrated due to playing in L1).
Oh, and Inter offered 20m for Mancini last summer, Juventus offered 16m the year before. Nobody’s sure what Real Madrid offered, but it was up there (not including the Real tax – which is now something like 65%). If Reveillere added to his value, then it’s at least 23-25m now (23m being the number Rafa offered).
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And how much of Keita have you seen? Besides the champions league match against MU? And I don’t agree about players being overrated in the French Ligue. It’s always the opposite. Players are underrated here unless they play for Lyon. Keita turns on and off just as much as Mancini, but he’s younger and stronger.
There was nothing in the Liverpool forums about Benitez making a formal offer, just that Benitez was interested and then changed his mind.
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to add about underrated players:
I mean they are underrated by fans, who dont’ watch the French Ligue unless they support the teams. Ask any non-French football fan about Ligue 1 players, even the ones playing in Lyon, and chances are they don’t know them, no matter how good they are. Besides the big ones like Nasri that is.
Managers are different and don’t look down on the French league, which provide some of the best players in the world.
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Matthew: Personally, I think Keita could be as talented as Mancini, but the reason I said could is because Mancini plays in Serie A, whereas Keita has yet to prove himself outside of France. If Keita can replicate his success in one of the big three leagues, then yes, I think it can be argued that Keita > Mancini. But until then, Mancini > Keita. Speaking for myself, I didn’t think Keita’s price at 18m was robbery, given the inflation in the current market. Lyon made a good deal with Lille. So it would make sense that Mancini would be more than that because he is a Serie A player, and as we all know, prices are inflated in the big three leagues. If anything was a robbery, it was that Chelsea paid too little for Malouda.
Chris, Keita is quite good. He hasn’t been that stellar in the league so far, but it’s only been three games, and he’s in a new team that is undergoing a lot of upheaval at the moment, so I don’t think it’s fair to write him off just yet. He was fabulous for Lille most of last year and was terrific in the Peace Cup.
I prefer to think of it like this: Lyon made Keita their biggest ever transfer, at 18m. And Lyon hardly ever pay more than 8m (in the current roster, only Fred and Keita cost more than that). So if Aulas broke the bank for Keita, it was for a good reason. As Guignol said in an earlier post, Lyon recruiters don’t watch skysports. A player’s transfer value is related to his media coverage, but his value on the field isn’t.
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Inara & Matthew : Keita is talented, but he’s not as pacey nor quite as technical as Mancini yet, by quite a long shot. People forget that L1 clubs rely on 2 (or more commonly 3) players that are very physical to “run” the midfield : Makoun, Bodmer and Fauvergue or Cabaye did it in Lille’s squad. Roma only use De Rossi to do the same kind of work, so it is a hint to Mancini’s greater defensive efforts. Keita is pretty much a “low striker”, whilst Mancini is a “high full-back”. And that means that with Mancini in the squad, far more tactical options are available to the manager.
Mancini is 27, Keita is 26, so age isn’t the question, and neither of them will be getting vastly better. Mancini is a proved Champion’s League winger, thrice vice-champion of Serie A in 4 seasons with Roma (one 5th that became 2nd after the “Calciomoggi”), whilst Kader joined a Lille side that had just finished 2nd in Ligue 1, and lead them to 3rd and then 10th place…
Keita for 16M€, Malouda for 20M€ and Mancini for 15M€… I don’t think that’s how I would have them… I’d be going for 12M€, 26M€ and 22M€.
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Meh, I forgot to put in what I came here for in the first place :
Football365.com : “Jose Mourinho has slapped a “for sale” sign on Glen Johnson.” and “Jermain Defoe could be leaving Tottenham after contract negotiations seem to have broken down.” and “Sunderland boss Roy Keane is set to sign Roma defender Sammy Kuffour on a free transfer.”
Fun, fun, fun. I wonder if Lyon are at all interested.
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Basically, what Shazback said. How many attacking players have thrived in L1 then failed miserably elsewhere? Keita is highly overrated right now, and will be until he leaves Lyon and proves himself. Malouda is a different, highly consistent, story. Keita doesn’t have the kind of control Malouda has, which – at 26 – is questionable he will ever retain.
And Matthew, I’ve seen a lot of Lille and Keita (as Inara will attest to because of my unhealthy love for Mathieu Bodmer), and I actually didn’t see any of last year’s ManU matchup. I do watch plenty L1. And if soccer forums is where you’re getting your info I don’t know what to tell you. They made a 19m offer then a 23m offer.
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http://www.olweb.fr/index.php?lng=fr&a=34878&pid=101002
http://www.mercato365.com/article_188831_Lyon-Dementi-pour-Mancini.shtmlLyon just put on their website that they don’t want an attacking player.
I’m still rooting for my predictions number 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8.
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Lyon deny everything. Their official notifications are almost as untrustworthy as RMC. That being said, I’m hoping the rumors aren’t true. I don’t want Mancini as he is a surplus to requirements.
Chris, a lot of attackers have succeeded outside of L1 too. Ribery, Henry, Threzeguet, Drogba, Anelka, Kanoute, Pires, probably Malouda, etc. Just because some of have failed doesn’t meant that Keita will. No one knows until he gets a chance to prove it. But I still think he’s very talented and skill wise, one of the better players in L1.
Will Mancini succeed outside Serie A, Who knows? He could easily be a flop in the EPL or in another league, but will that take away from his talents? And he is not consistent either, definitely not as consistent as Malouda. Neither is Robben. So the talent label can still apply even if they blow hot and cold.
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Oh sheesh, the press. First Italians see JMA in Rome, then they make up a story of Lyon wanting Mancini, then the French papers make it up, then suddenly a deal is signed.
I saw the website and Lyon claim their recruitment is finished. I don’t think thats true because just yesterday Perrin said an attacker is needed. But Mancini is not that player. I wouldn’t be surprised if Lyon were using the Mancini hoopla to cover their tracks in another direction. JMA can be sneaky.
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We’ll have to disagree Shazback & Chris, because I still rate Mancini more. Even some Roma supporters think he’s overrated (check out the Roma BigSoccer forums, some of them think even getting 18m for Mancini is a great deal).
Inara, you can relax now. As you first predicted, Lyon never put in a bid for Mancini because Perrin doesn’t want a winger like him. JMA must have been there on other business. So Lyon won’t be spending money on him.
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Everyone breathe a collective sigh a relief. Lyon fans didn’t want him, Roma fans didn’t want to let him go.
And now we are all happy now.
Let’s focus on what else Aulas is brewing, because I don’t buy for one second that he is done with the mercato.
Apparently the Julio Baptista rumors are still afloat. I wonder if the club will pursue that. Perrin may quit if Lyon don’t find him an additional attacker, and he has a point – we only have two strikers at the moment.
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Matthew, if you rate Mancini more (better), then we concur. I think Mancini is better than Keita. Once Keita moves to Lyon for 16M€, then I can’t see why Mancini would go for less.
Keita hasn’t broken Reveillere’s legs in 4 trys. Mancini got it done in 2. I see a difference. It might be slim, but Mancini is a faster, more technical, more tactical version of Keita. Lyon have cash, so I can’t imagine Roma letting him leave for a low bid.
Inara, your examples are in fact quite bad… Henry was highly rated as a winger, and was seen as one of L1’s best wingers. He moved to Serie A, and couldn’t do anything, being completely ineffective as a winger. It’s when he moved to Arsenal that he became a striker, and his new position allowed him to use his full potential. Henry is an average crosser and is quite poor as a winger. Anelka was a fabulous prospect, and had a very promising start to EPL football. But then he went to spain where he did very badly, and returned to Paris where he was good, but not exceptional. A loan to Liverpool that didn’t conclude, and since then it’s been mid-table stardom and Turkey. Kanoute was pretty much dropped at Lyon, who let him leave for West Ham, where he became an average striker. It’s only recently, 6 seasons after leaving Lyon that he has found his stride. Pirès wasn’t a very highly rated winger at Marseille, where he was frozen out of the squad for the second half of the season. He then went to Arsenal for 6M£ to replace 25M£ Marc Overmars who had joined Barça. At Arsenal, he was replaced as a more central player, and he found form (and good pairing with Henry). Ribery and Malouda, we’ll have to see.
I only agree with Drogba and Trezeguet being “great” moves from french clubs to foreign clubs. And Trezeguet started in Platense, not in France…
And french footballers that failed when they moved to EPL are legion, only in the few past years : Bellion (4 goals in 28 games for Man U, 4 goals in 5 games for Bordeaux), Boumsong, Camara, Djibril Cissé, Darcheville, Lama, Laslandes, Le Pen, Prunier, Silvestre, Sommeil,… And a few footballers that failed in EPL were very sucessful in Ligue 1: Baros, Djemba-Djemba, Van Buyten, Saïb, Ouaddou, Swierczewski, Aliou Cissé, Sahko… I’m sure if I looked a litte more I’d find better ones.
I think, honestly, that a player who proves his worth in Serie A, EPL or La Liga is sure to be one of the best players in Ligue 1. On the other hand, the best players in Ligue 1 are not sure to be able when tackling Serie A, EPL or La Liga.
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This reminds me of the cash + diarra deal from Chelsea. All the media craze about it. And then how it was denied the next day by both clubs.
I think being a Lyon fan means you are always envying another’s clubs strikers. I’m happy with Lyon’s midfielders and defenders and even gk, when everyone is healthy. Even the wingers. Our main strikers should be better though.
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Shazback: First of all, I don’t get why people are getting their backs up at the suggestion that Keita could succeed outside of France.
Secondly, I don’t doubt Mancini’s talent. I don’t think I’ve ever said he was anything otherwise. But you have to be fair – Mancini doesn’t make moves like that all the time. Maybe once or twice a year. If that’s how you judge world class players, okay. And Mancini is a class above Reveillere. No one is denying that either. Perhaps the results would have been different if he had been facing Abidal. Who knows? And sure, Roma has every right to ask around 20m for Mancini, given how much other wingers are going for these days.
I don’t think Mancini is any faster or technical than Keita, having watched my fair share of both players. The biggest difference between the two for me is that Mancini is used to coming up against world class opposition and knows how to handle the stress, how to keep his cool during tense moments, and stay steady to see the ball through. Keita can’t do that and loses composure instead. That doesn’t mean he never will.
Also, when I listed my examples, I wasn’t talking about just wingers but French attackers in general. All those players started out in Ligue 1. Just because they blossomed late or changed position has nothing to do with that fact. And so what if they failed to make an impression in one league but was superb in another. There is no rule in football that a world class player has to succeed everywhere he sets his foot down. Sheva and Crespo came from Serie A performed quite poorly in the EPL, and yet no one is saying they are bad players. Don’t forget Heinze, Cantona, and Evra too. They did well leaving France.
The fact is that Ligue 1 produces a great deal of talent despite not being a top three league. Yes there have been many French flops (and most of those were Houllier signings anyway), but how many Italian, English, German, and Spanish flops have there been? We all know that the big three leagues are better than the rest, but that doesn’t mean L1 should be written off as crap.
Of the examples you listed, Baros has NOT been successful in France. If he has, I haven’t seen it. Boumsong did well at Rangers, Silvestre did well for MU in the early days. Steve Marlet and Bruno Cheyrou have not made an impression in L1 coming back from the EPL. Van Buyten is doing well at Bayern now. Diarra hasn’t been stellar for Real Madrid, what does that say about him?
I don’t agree that a rated player in one of the big three leagues will always make an impact in France. Grosso has been totally unimpressive so far, despite the fact that he was terrific with Palermo and a WC winnger. Even Reveillere on the left has done better than him. Both Morientes and Saviola did not do well in L1 during their time at Monaco yet they are good players. Even Ronaldinho wasn’t as good when he was with PSG. Of course, it is easier to do well in L1 if you are a good player because the opposition is less taxing, but only to a certain degree. Anyway, there have been very few examples of playings coming in the opposite direction to make a real comparison.
Sorry if this is a rambling post, but it’s getting long, and I can’t keep track of what I said or didn’t said anything. But my point is, I don’t want to go into a back and forth of listing players that flopped and succeeded, as there have been examples in both cases. More flops than hits, but that’s how it is in any league.
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what does lyon do with all their money? i read they have as much money as arsenal. why don’t they use that to buy a good striker?
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Martin: Lyon are saving up for their OL Land project, in which they’ll be building their own stadium complex.
Also, it’s the high taxes that make it difficult to lure expensive players, not the transfer fees that are prohibitive.
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Inara : I’m not denying that a lot of good players succeeded in the “big 3 leagues”, and that a lot of them started out in France.
Keita could probably be a good addition to a squad like Aston Villa or Bolton. I’m not denying that, because I think he was one of Lille’s best players last season.
But I still think that Mancini would make the starting XI if it was a choice between Keita and him. Mancini is, I think, not only more composed, but more efficient. Keita gets past his defender, and shoots off-terget far too often. Mancini might just challenge his defender and then look for a pass, but I find that is of more use to the team.
I don’t get what you’re on about with your examples. How many english players have succeded outside the EPL? I bet you can count them on one hand, and that’s over something like the past 30 years. But does that mean that the Premier League has a bad level? I don’t think so. The only means of comparing clubs are two very inefficient ways : continental club competitions and transfers. Both show that Ligue 1 isn’t as good as the EPL, since EPL clubs knock L1 sides out of club competitions, and the best L1 players leave L1 for EPL, and the best EPL players don’t leave for L1.
Sure, a lot of french players (as well as players who played in a french club) have succeded well in the “big 3″ leagues. But so have a cartload of Czech players that started out in Czech leagues. Nobody’s getting excited by the 3rd or 4th best winger in the Czech league though.
Baros had the 4th best striker average last season… if that’s not being successful, then I don’t know what is. He scored 4 goals in 4 games upon starting, and after that has been on a 11-game no-goal streak. But L1 striker-wise he’s still a success… After all, he’s still starting this season.
I’m sorry to pick on names, but Boumsong wasn’t any good at Newcastle. If Glasgow Rangers played in EPL, then I’m sure we’d see that he wasn’t any good there either. Silvestre is still a useful player who can fill in at most positions. He’s a good defender, but never was number 1 at Man U. He was #1 LB for a short moment whilst Irwin’s replacement was in the finding, then #2 CD when Ferdinand took the center of defence (he can thank Ferdinand for his 6-month ban), and since Vidiç, Heinze, Evra have arrived, he’s been pushed down to #6 or 7, behind Piqué and Bardsley…Marlet and Cheyrou both played less than 40 EPL games… And both played over 159 L1 games. Guess where they were good, or at least “looked good”.
I still think that a player who impresses in the “big 3″ will be one of the top L1 players. Grosso might be a flop for the moment, but I think he’ll get a patch of form, and start being more useful. And let’s not forget that he was only in the WC squad because of injuries, and that his season was so impressive that Lyon were the only club that wanted him… Maxwell had pushed him out of Inter’s back 4. Morientes was a very good player for Monaco, or I wasn’t watching the same team. 10 league goals in 28 games, 9 vital goals in their rush to the CL finals, I don’t know what more a striker can bring, since he wasn’t just a poacher. He was named European Striker of the Year that season (and went on to flop at Real and Liverpool). Saviola is support striker, and 11 goals in 36 games isn’t bad, considering he had no wingers (Giuly and Rother just left), no co-striker (Chevanton spent half his time injured), and was heavily marked (Heinze was man-marking him when Monaco played against Paris…). For Ronalidinho, it’s quite strange, since he did become one of europe’s hottest properties in France… Ronnie’s talent was mainly lost thanks to Fernandez’s poor man-management abilities.
If you look at the players who join L1 clubs from “big 3″ clubs, they are almost all players who once played in L1.
I’ll take bets, but out of the 5 players that came to L1 from the “big 3″ this summer, at least 3 will be hits this year. On the other hand, if more than 4 of the 21 players that left L1 for the “big 3″ are hits this season, I’ll be surprised. And if more than 10 of them are still in the “big 3″ in 5 years, then I’ll be amazed.
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