Poll: Reevaluating Our Mercato
By: Inara | April 1st, 2008Last September, I took a poll asking how you felt about Lyon’s summer transfers. Of the 124 people who responded, 42% of you said that recruitment was “okay.” About 31% said it was “not that great”, and another 20% said it was “poor”. Only 5% said that recruitment was “very good”.
In many ways, Keita epitomizes Lyon’s recruitment this year.
Nearly eight months later, Lyon are within reach of their next title and their first French Cup after 35 years. And despite another early Champions League exit, Lyon have acquitted themselves fairly well in Europe (the loss to Rangers notwithstanding).
To recap, here is a short update on the new players (including our January signings). Poll is at the bottom of the page.
Mathieu Bodmer: Just immense, really. He was slow to establish himself due to his having to play as a CB during Lyon’s defensive crisis. But thanks to playing several back to back matches in midfield, he’s proving once again that he’s the best midfielder in France not named Juninho. Goals, assists, and all around play, this guy has it all. Price: €6.5m
Kader Keita: While he hasn’t yet lived up to this huge price tag, he’s getting better with each game, and if he’s not scoring, he’s offering vital assists. He spent the first several months on the bench, but his time at the African Cup of Nations has helped him regain his confidence. Price: €18m
Cleber Anderson: An emergency signing, he hasn’t had enough time to leave a lingering impression thanks to picking up an untimely knee injury. But from what he has displayed, I don’t think people will shed too many tears at his absence. However, he was always meant to be a backup player, and in that regard, he did the job. Price: €4m
Fabio Grosso: The jury is still out on him. He tends to disappear in most league games, but he manages to come up huge in big matches. His best games were against Lyon’s toughest opponents – notable ones include Barcelona, Manchester United, PSG. But against teams like Le Mans? Not so great. His great offensive contributions don’t make his defensive weaknesses disappear, but it’s obvious that Cris’s return has stabilized Lyon’s defense, so Grosso’s lapses aren’t as painful as they used to be. Price: €7m
Nadir Belhadj: Didn’t have a chance to impress at Lyon, which is unfortunate. He had a good campaign in the Peace Cup, but his league games with Lyon (which were admittedly few) were too lukewarm for Perrin, who refused to drop Grosso. Belhadj decided to leave in the winter for more playing time. Price: €3.24m
Frederic Roux: Signed on a one year contract after Gregory Coupet’s injury last summer. Hasn’t played a single minute with Lyon, and since Coupet returned, hasn’t even made the bench. Price: Free Agent
Cesar Delgado: A traditional Argentine winger, his arrival in the middle of winter wasn’t the best of ideas, and he’s had some trouble getting settled into the club and the city. So far, he mostly comes off the bench and so hasn’t had a chance to make a huge impression, but he’s looked quite good in the few minutes he’s had. His best qualities are his speed and his technical ability. Expect him to have a greater role next season. Price: €10m
Marc Crosas: A Barcelona loan out who wants to stay at Lyon after this summer. The player he most resembles is one Lyon no longer have in their ranks: Tiago. He’s not a creative midfielder like Juninho, Bodmer, or Kim Kallstrom, nor is he defensive like Jeremy Toulalan. He’s more of an organizer who is good at link up play. Like Delgado, he mostly comes off the bench, though he’s shown glimpses of the quality that has Bernard Lacombe so interested in him. He has great passing ability that with enough practice, will become sublime. Price: On loan
Jean-Alain Boumsong: A much derided player, not just in my blog but in the footballing world. However, he hasn’t put a single foot wrong since arriving at Lyon, and his performances have been steady and in some instances, bordering on world class (like against Manchester United). No matter who he plays next to, whether it’s Cris or Sebastien Squillaci, he’s showing why the big clubs and Raymond Domenech like him so much. A great back up to have, he is challenging Squillaci for a starting spot. Price: €3m
Ederson: Touted as the heir of Juninho, he’s also been called the heir or Ronaldinho, Kaka, Rivaldo, and all those other Brazilians. There’s a good reason for that – he’s very talented and is known to be a game changing player. He has yet to play at Lyon since his loan to Nice doesn’t end until June, but he should fit right into Lyon’s squad. Price: €15m
How do you feel about Lyon’s mercato now?
Category: Transfers
Tags: Cesar Delgado, Cleber Anderson, Ederson, Fabio Grosso, Frederic Roux, Jean-Alain Boumsong, Kader Keita, Lyon, Marc Crosas, Mathieu Bodmer, Nadir Belhadj, Poll, TransfersSubscribe
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Comments
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Eh, Evilo, I’m still waiting for Bodmer/Keita to put in a good CL game. And Malouda is still better IMO than Keita.
Also, when did I put Yaya Touré as “world class”? No way he’s world class. Read, boy.
Santos did actually get the go ahead of Bodmer in central midfield. You can argue whatever you want, Paillot was there waiting to play as a CB, and if Bodmer was “world class” or close to it, he’d have been started at least a few times early in the season in midfield. But he wasn’t.
Back to Malouda : Why is he better than Keita? Because he’s more reliable. Modern football isn’t suited to gimmicks and tricks. Modern football is all about going forwards, and then being in place defensively. Malouda isn’t brilliant going forwards, but defensively he’s much better than Keita. After all, last season Houllier didn’t hesitate a second to put Malouda out in every game. This season, Perrin seems undecided about playing Keita. And that’s because Keita isn’t doing the work defensively.
Bodmer is getting better, but do you think he’s “shining”? I find that the only midfielder that’s “shining” in Lyon is Toulalan… Bodmer’s 25, Keita’s 26. They’re not kids. And yet they’ve done less than Carrick in his first season so far. You can argue all you want, Carrick was a first-team choice right from the start of the season, and netted when it was important : the first goal at Old Trafford against Roma. Sure, Bodmer hit Bordeaux, and Keita scored against Monaco. But there’s a difference in scale, I fear. So far, Bodmer and Keita have done less than Carrick (on their own) in his first season. Or Sneijder. Or Eduardo. Or Elano. Or Ribéry. Or Toni. Or etc.And hearing that Keita/Bodmer “dominated” the league when they were at Lille is honestly hilarious. Where did Lille finish last season? 10th, right? Yay for mid-table domination!
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There you go, you go back to gimmicks and tricks, while Keita has been DECISIVE. Malouda ISN’T DECISIVE.
Yes Bodmer and Keita have dominated in Lille, where apart from Malkoun, they were pretty much alone. That was enough to get very close to your beloved ManU.
Sneijder is a FAILURE in Madrid. Get updated again. Carrick had less impact in a full year than Bodmer over the last 2 months.
Bodmer hit Bordeaux? Do you only look at the score sheet?
Bodmer has dominated every game he’s played in the last 2 months. He was responsible for all their wins (PSG, Bordeaux, Monaco and others).
Malouda is all about defensive responsabilities (that he doesn’t always do right BTW, let’s not overrate that part as well), but as a forward, his FIRST priority is to create something offensively.
Malouda creates NOTHING. Which is why even Chelsea doesn’t play him, even though they have a gaping hole at LW and have to play Kalou out of position.
Keita has had more impact offensively in one month than Malouda in 6.Posted from
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And I love how you compare with Carrick BTW. Carrick arrived on a team where nobody was playing the CM position, except Fletcher from time to time. They had to play striker Smith there.
Bodmer arrived and played CB and then had to beat three of Kallstrom, Santos, Juni and Crosas to get some playing time.And FYI, Santos usually played instead of the injured Toulalan. Toulalan and Santos didn’t share many games.
In case you didn’t realize, Bodmer and Toulalan do not play the same role.
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Sorry, but calling Beckham a success abroad is a joke to be honest. Happening to be on a team when they win a trophy doesn’t make you a success. Particularly over 4 years.
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Meh, seeing Hargreaves on the list is funny too.
Good old canadian boy that chose the english nationality to play high level football doesn’t make him english.
English players ARE overrated, and the fact they haven’t made a SINGLE WC or EC final since 1966 speaks more volume than any long essay.
EC : semi final (at home), 1/4 final (in 04) and then 1st round elimination in 80, 88, 92, 00.
WC : win (at home), 1 1/2 final (90) and then only quarters or early exits.At some point, writing essays about what ifs and stuff is great (like Malouda or England) but producing on the pitch is better (like Keita or France).
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Evilo… What the NT has do with this, I must admit I fail to understand. The English NT has NEVER been as good as english teams. What other country has won 6 European Cups in a row (1976 to 1982, so it’s before the Bosman ruling)? None. And yet, England didn’t win anything en Europe then. England won the World Cup before winning the Champions League. Hell, England has won more World Cups than Spain. Why does anybody think this Cesc guy has any talent? Or this Raul? Hey, they must be crap since they haven’t made a single WC final in their whole history! And only one EC win… in 1964 (at home, in a EC tournament with 4 teams : Spain, Hungary, Denmark, Russia)…
WCs and ECs aren’t the same as club football. As you say : “producing on the pitch is better”. How many CLs has Gerrard won? 1, right? How many UEFA Cups has Gerrard won? 1, right? How many european trophies have French clubs won in their whole history? 2 : 1 CL, 1 UEFA. So by your standards, Gerrard is at the level of one of the best French players ever, if not better because he hasn’t played 50 seasons of european competitions…
You can say all you want, Lyon went out. Fact. Lyon couldn’t beat this side where you seem to find that they are full of players worse than Lyon’s subs (Carrick, Hargreaves, Fletcher, Nani, perhaps Scholes, Giggs, and Anderson whom you find worse than Keita and Bodmer).
Malouda might be crap in your opinion. But with him on the side you got three quarter finals in a row. Since you’re so performance-driven, we’ll check back in three years and see if Keita has managed it.
I find Keita unreliable. He’s interesting going forwards, but put a good winger agains him, and he’s not coming back enough to do his job. I’ve got the latest copy of So Foot here, and they’ve got an interview of Govou here. And guess what he says? “Le problème, c’est que si je commence à attaquer à tout va, je sais que le coach va me dire ‘reviens, reviens, reviens’ et je n’ai pas autant de coffre que Florent [Malouda] pour faire les deux. On ne peut nous [Hatem Ben Arfa, Abdul Kader Keita, Karim Benzema, Cesar Delgado] demander d’aller à la guerre comme Florent [Malouda], Mamadou [Diarra] ou Mickaël [Essien] pouvaient le faire“. I’ll let you translate that. But it’s clear that Keita is a lot less solid defensively than Malouda. However, he counter-acts by being more offensive. But not enough, I find. As for playing well against PSG, Monaco and other low-level teams, you’re forgetting how Malouda played against them. Honestly, Malouda was the best winger in Frace last year. He won the UNFP award (Players’ choice) and the FF award (press choice). You’re talking like he was some defender that was “lucky” whilst Keita was a monster. That just wasn’t the case. Malouda was immense. But at Chelsea he’s lost his place to Cole (not Kalou), and afterwards to an in-form Kalou. But he’s back now. For long? I don’t know. But Chelsea are very special, with Anelka or Drogba on the bench, not being a starter there isn’t like not being a starter at Lyon. [Also, you said before that players aren't starters in their first season, then you "bash" Malouda for... not being a starter in his first season!]
Beckham, however you want to look at it, was a success in Real Madrid. Go to any Madrista and ask him. He’s one of the fan’s favorites, and even Capello recognised that he couldn’t drop him from the first side. He brought him back, and he proved instrumental in winning the Liga.
Anyway, enjoy the end of the french League with 18M€-Keita who’s doing less on-pitch than Free-Leroy…
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You dispute someone’s point of view that english players are overrated.
The english NT has EVERYTHING to do with the talent of english players… How could it not be obvious?I love how you compare Malouda and Keita on team performance rather than individual performance. Pretty interesting formula.
I’m guessing Stephane Guivarc’h is a better striker than Shevchenko then.
As for your tactical approach of being a winger again, I simply disagree. You focus on defensive responsabilities, I don’t. To me, Wingers are supposed to create danger, assist scorers, run in the back of defensemen and score a few themselves. That’s the MAIN goal. After that, being good defensively is a bonus.
I don’t dispute the fact Malouda’s better defensively. But he doesn’t produce anything offensively. He doesn’t create anything except simple unimaginative boring football.I don’t bash Malouda for not starting. I bash him for not starting at a place where there’s nobody AND I bash him because he’s SUCKED there.
And yes, even as a non-Lyon fan I tremendously like to watch Keita, Bodmer, Rothen, or other creators, without having to laugh at the Leroy comparison.
After all, Leroy is only at what his 10th club? He’s a streaky guy that can play 1 game right and then 5 games awful.
I know you’re a Rennes fan and thus completely blind towards your team, but frankly, that comparison is laughable.
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“But he’s back now”
He’s back?
He played once in Fener and isn’t even on the bench today.Posted from
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Bodmer is back, as well is Keita. They are key players of Les Gones. People must understand that they must accept Lyon kind of playing football. In Lille they play more defensefly, because Les Douges play defense kind of football, close and with many counterattack. Lyon, on the other side, play open, quick and attacking football. Thats the reason why other team can score against them. Keita, as well Bodmer, in the begin of the seasoon din’t accept that kind of tactic. But now they are accept now and they play like kings. Lyon will be become a machine like in past few seasoon. They will be dangerous team for everyone.
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And Sazback : If you are Rennes fan I will say to you. Your team sucks. They lose against Bordeaux today 0-2. Hahahahahaahahahaha losers
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Evilo : Go watch PSG 1995-1997. 1 CWC win, 1 CWC final, twice second in the league. Then compare him to Keita. Then you can -start- comparing Leroy to Keita. But even this season, Leroy is scoring (7 goals) and setting up goals (9 assists). He’s also extremely creative. Hell, he’s 33, and as you say, he’s playing in his 8th club. And “value-for-money” he’s better than Keita.
I think that you can, to a certain extent, compare players through what their respective sides achieve. Take Peter Schmeichel. Denmark were a “good” but not brilliant side before he came into the team. And then they were great. Pretty similar to Manchester United, where when he left there was a massive gap, that Bosnich, Van der Gouw, Barthez, Howard and now Van der Sar have been trying to fill… Sure, the team has changed. But Schmeichel added an extra dimension to the side. Because that’s the whole point. Football isn’t an individual sport. Take Ronaldinho. He’s one of the most talented footballers, but he doesn’t have any life hygene or work ethic. In short, he’s not a “team player”. And why didn’t Mourinho want Ronaldinho, but want Malouda, Essien and Obi Mikel? Because it’s people with a high work rate who allow the “creative” players to express themselves.
Malouda does have competition on the left wing. Joe Cole, for instance. And Mourinho let Robben leave to bring in Malouda. He probably had a reason to do it. And since he’s a UEFA Cup and Champions’ League winning manager, I’d take a wild guess that it was a good reason.
sidney govou : Yea, I’m a Rennes fan. You know, that club with only a fifth of your budget, but that has still gotten into Europe the last few seasons. Oh, and… Sorry for the 3-1 loss at Marseille today. I mean, too bad you lost twice against them this season. After all, Rennes beat them 3-1 at Rennes, and drew at the Vél. So hey, no hard feelings, right?
P.S. I loved watching Bodmer and Keita against Marseille. They were… Well, words can’t define their performance.
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Mourinho didn’t want Ronnie? According to whom? What exact source?
Joe Cole is a better fit for the right wing. He plays left wing from time to time because Malouda sucks too much.
Robben was let go because of injury and personnality issues. Real have the same problems with him this year BTW.You say Keita wasn’t good in Marseille? Wow. Bodmer, I’ll give you that, didn’t have the best of game playing out of position.
You’re one of the guys like the EPL fans that completely underrate our league and think a player instantly becomes a top player once he signs that contract with a team of a bigger league.
We’ve seen that so many times.
Drogba? Meh, he’s a result of the OM system. He signs with Chelsea? Bam, he’s world class.
Sagna? Meh, he was a solid unspectacular RB in Auxerre. He signs with Arsenal? Oh my god, he’s the best RB in the universe!!!! omgz!!1!!!!1!!We have plenty of quality here in L1, and yesterday’s game was fantastic. And we were still missing Valbuena, Fred, Toulalan, Benzema, Ziani and many other magicians.
Yesterday’s performance by Nasri, Ben Arfa, Keita, Juninho, Niang, Cissé, Akale and co was fantastic.
How many games like this do you see in Europe? Spain? Italy? England?
Not many. Games like this are a rarity, and it shows the quality of the players we have in L1.
So stop overrating the english players, or the headcases like Leroy (who I still like to see BTW, but I’m certainly not a fan boy like you).
Value for money, he still isn’t even close to Keita. Especially since he’s way older, way slower, way too much of a personnality problem and simply not CL class player.And how many times in your life have you seen a player play 82 balls in 80 minutes like Bodmer did the other day (with 2 assists)? You who love “work rate” (even sterile one) surely must tip your hat to this?
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You know what? You go and enjoy Nice (3rd) playing their way into the Champions League. I’ll stick with Arsenal (3rd) and Liverpool (4th). As for the UEFA Cup, enjoy watching PSG (18th) struggle, whilst I’ll watch Tottenham (11th).
As you say : “producing on the pitch is better” : the EPL has 4 CL quarter-finalists, and at least one semi-finalist. The EPL has had 3 CL finalists in a row, and possibly a 4th this year. There isn’t a single European competition this year where a French club has gone further than EPL clubs. Only one French club managed to pull through the group stage, whilst four english clubs did. Three english clubs got as far as Marseille in the UEFA Cup, and whilst Marseille had been 2nd in the league the previous year and reversed from the CL, all three english clubs had qualified through the first stage, and had finished outside the top 4.
“Games like this are a rarity, and it shows the quality of the players we have in L1.” If the players are -that- good, then how come L1’s trophy cabinet is so tiny? How come -such good- players are eliminated by -inferior- players from foreign leagues? Whilst Manchester eliminated Lyon, Liverpool took care of Toulouse and Marseille, (and in the UEFA Cup the casualty list is almost a joke : Zurich, Dinamo Zagreb, Anderlecht, Zenit St. Petersburg) English clubs were knocked out by, uhh… Nobody in the CL, and by Fiorentina, PSV (y’know the club that knocked Lyon out of the quarter-finals a few years ago) and Sporting Lisbon in the UEFA Cup.
If you found OM-OL “fabulous”, then you might be kicking yourself for missing these few games : Bolton-Arsenal, M’boro-Man Utd, Chelsea-Aston Villa, Chelsea-Tottenham, Liverpool-Tottenham, Tottenham-Aston Villa, Tottenham-Arsenal, Tottenham-Chelsea, Man Utd-Arsenal, Portsmouth-Reading, and that’s just ones that were “balanced”. Because otherwise pretty much any Man U or Arsenal game is a showcase of flowing attacking football.
But I digress. Enjoy Nancy in the Champions League. After all, they’ve only won 5 games 1-0, had 13 draws and scored 2 goals or more 11 times this season. Surely they represent what you mean about “quality of Ligue 1″…
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It’s quite obvious L1 teams don’t have a european trophy culture.
Who can doubt that Nantes 95 was a CL candidate? And they still lost to a lesser team in Bayer in the UEFA 1/4.You give me names of big teams. Count the number of guys that came through the french league.
Arsenal (immense list), Liverpool (Riise and co), ManU (Evra, Saha and co), Tottenham (Chimbonda, Malbranque, Kaboul, etc…), Barca (Ronnie, Thuram, Edmilson, Marquez, Henry, etc…) and so on.
Those teams are made of many french players or players that went through L1.How come, if L1 is so poor, that all these players shine on these “big teams”, even players that were considered average here (see Chimbonda for instance)?
And yes sunday’s game was better than almost any EPL game this year, like it or not. I love english football for a lot of reason, but technically, tactically, it’s not very good (in fact La Liga is better). However, the passion, the excitement etc… is the best in the EPL.
Now, when it comes to the quality of the EPL players, I think there’s a whole lot of overrating, not only on english players (Bent for oh so many millions, what????), but also for foreign players, who go from good solid guys (see Sagna) to all world in a matter of 5 solid games.
I won’t even touch the quality of EPL goalies, which is barely worth L2.Posted from
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Honestly, I can’t see what you want to get at with your “look at how many players played in L1 before moving on to EPL/Liga/Serie A”. How many players played in Belgium before playing en EPL? How many played in the Netherlands? How many played in Portugal? How many played in ? There are more players that have played in the SPL than in L1 currently playing in EPL. Does that mean that the SPL is better than L1? Does it mean -anything-? Do you think players stay at one, same, constant and inamovible level during their whole carreer? Of course they don’t. Just look at Adebayor. He wasn’t good at Metz or Monaco. He was promising, but he wasn’t good. And why is he so much better at Arsenal? Well, to put it simply : add 9 kg of muscle, remove 2 kg fat. There you go. Also, add having a manager and a management team that actually taught him how to use his pace to full effect, and how to not lose his temper. You can say “oh, but L1 must be great because Adebayor didn’t score so often in L1″, I’ll just answer that you’re comparing oranges and pears. Adebayor has completely changed since he left Monaco. And that was barely two years ago.
How many Man U players came through L1? Evra, Silvestre and Saha. How many came through Man U’s youth system? Giggs, Scholes, Brown, Fletcher, Neville, Piqué, O’Shea. How many others came through EPL? Van der Sar, Kuszczak, Ferdinand, Rooney, Carrick, Tevez. Hell, the Portuguese Super League gave as many Man U players than L1, and better ones : Ronaldo, Nani and Anderson. Can anyone stand up and say that the BWin Liga is better than L1? No. Point mooted. Take Liverpool, Chelsea and -even- Arsenal- : how many players who were first-choice players in L1 clubs are there? Diaby wasn’t first-choice, nor was Flamini, nor Song, nor Clichy, nor Traoré. So that’s Adebayor, Sagna and Gallas that were regular L1 players. All the others were still just “becoming” good players when Arsène bought them, and it’s the training they recieved at Arsenal that turned them into the players they are today (PROTIP : Look at Menez, who chose to “stay in L1″ instead of going to Arsenal). And there are 3 Arsenal players that were regulars in the Bundesliga : Lehmann, Hleb and Rosicky. The only thing you gain by comparing leagues this way is a view of “movement patterns”. East European players move to Germany, and then to another of the “big 4″; African players move to L1 and then to one of the “big 4″… Does that make L1 better? That it’s a “filter” for African players? I don’t think so.
In short : Chimbonda turned down OM for Wigan; Flamini wasn’t first choice at OM and joined Arsenal, then trained for 2 years before breaking through consistantly on the first team; Adebayor was full of potential that Monaco couldn’t harness, but Arsenal did.
As a retort, you could consider all the “average” EPL/Serie A/Liga players that shine in L1… Morientes, Cissé, Guivarc’h and Papin could start you off.
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Oh, I forgot your “EPL goalies are barely worth L2″. Boo hoo hoo. Cech? Van der Sar? Reina? Cudicini? Almunia? Isaksson? Hart? Schmeichel? Given? Gordon? Oh, I forgot. Coupet the almighty is here. He who has singlehandedly brought OL to a new level. And Mandanda the savior who didn’t concede 4 goals in 2 games in Russia in the UEFA Cup. Or Landreau the great who never, ever, ever makes a single mistake.
Get real. EPL goalies aren’t all English. Sure, the English goalies are probably not much better than L2 goalies. But there’s a reason why even massive franco-philes like Wenger don’t buy French goalkeepers. Because the goalkeeper level is already good. If not very good in the big clubs. I’d advise you watch games between french clubs and english clubs in recent years, however I can already hear the all too common argument you might bring forth to explain the french club’s defensive weaknesses and the english club’s defensive stregth : “It’s nothing to do with the goalkeepers’ level, but the overall level of the squad. L1 keepers are better, but the defenders aren’t as good, so they’re more exposed, and ultimately concede more goals.” Yea, right. No point in arguing is there, then? You keep your L1 super goalies, EPL keeps the on-pitch performance, right?
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What do I get at? Wow, since I need to further explain…
You whine that the only teams worth watching are Arsenal, ManU, Barca, Real, Liverpool (what a boring team BTW) and co.
Yet it features players that you probably thought were average or above average when they played in L1 (the exception being Malouda, who funnily was talked about today at hfboards, with a Chelsea fan saying he’d drive him to any club willing to take him off Chelsea’s roster). Basically, these teams are often made of many former L1 players.Piqué came from ManU’s academy. I think I’ve heard them all. Wow.
Adebayor is suddenly good? Nah, he once again disappeared when it mattered with Arsenal, as any Gunners fan will attest. He got more playing time than with Monaco, and was played on a team that didn’t suck, as the only offensive weapon.
He didn’t suddenly become good when he signed an EPL contract. Same with Benjani, Sagna,
Also, defense is stressed before anything in France (remember your “a winger must foremost defend” argument), while scoring more than the other is the EPL motto.Flamini wasn’t first choice in OM? Big news to me. Diaby was a prime prospect, as he is now with Arsenal.
So Arsenal didn’t just baby-cradle and pick the best prospects out of France. Nah, by your reasonning, he picked some random players AND turned them into good players. Wow, you’re quite a treat.
Papin and Morientes are “average”? Good to know a Ballon D’or winner and one of the biggest scorer in CL history are average.
As for goalies, let’s laugh for a while.
Cech? Yep, world class, went through L1.
Van Der Sar? Yes, good, though he did completely suck in Juventus.
Reina? He made so many blunders he actually competes with Landreau here.
Cudicini is decent.How about the rest? Isaksson was an average goalie in L1, he’s an average one in the EPL. Definitely not a “good” goalie. Hart? Are you kidding? Schmeichel? You mean the “old” one or his son? In both cases, they’re not relevant. Gordon? Wow, you never saw these guys, right?
Really, did you EVER see these guys play? They make HUGE mistakes!We’ve had a somewhat average year for goalies in L1 I thought, but still Lloris is better than all EPL goalies except Cech (oh I know, until he’s moved to a big 4 team, you’ll say no), Mandanda has had a fantastic season, Coupet needs to come back to his best level, Pelé is good, Bracigliano is good, Richert, Ramé, etc…
Who is the EPL goalie of the year? That’s right Calamity James.
Says a lot indeed.The fact is that you probably don’t watch L1 and don’t know about the up and coming players. Otherwise you’d see the players that you’ll admire in 4 years in the EPL, Liga or Serie A.
You’ll find them average now and super human then.Well guess what, they won’t transform magically. They’re already good and it’s a pity you can’t realize the chance you have to see them.
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United States -
Way to read what you want, Evilo.
I watch plenty games of L1. I watch 4 per week-end on average. Way to say that I “don’t watch L1″. Also, way to say I “don’t know about the up and coming players”. I mean, I know how good “kids” can be. I watched Meghni, Le Tallec, Yebda, Ben Saada, Débris, Sinama-Pongolle, Piètre and Faty win the U-17 WC in 2001 (and the subsequent generations, none of whom were as good). I keep tabs on CFA teams and U-18 and U-16 leagues. But I recognise that you can’t compare Flamini now with Flamini back when he played at Marseille. He wasn’t as concentrated, his placement was haphazard, and his passing was often off. Now, he’s become a much better player. His physical condition is a lot better, and his passing has improved massively. If you think Flamini was first choice, then how do you explain him only starting 6 games in Marseille? Hell, if 6 games is “first choice”, then most clubs have 20-odd “first choice” players. Flamini was seen as a good/very good youngster, but wasn’t a first choice player by any means. And when he joined Arsenal, he wasn’t first choice either, only starting 9 games. It’s the training he recieved that turned him into the player he is today. Look at Yahiaoui (well, if you know him, that is, because you seem oblivious about what happens in french youth structures). He was perhaps better than Nasri in terms of pure skill. But OM were unable to cope with him, and he never signed a pro contract with them, preferring to go to Istres. And thus never managed to fulfill his talent. Menez also should be far more in the limelight than he is. But again, he went to a club that was unable to turn him into the great player he could have been. As for Diaby, his 2 starts say it all. Piqué hadn’t played pro for Barça, and after joining Man U only got his full début 2 years later. I call those two years “academy”. Since he was 16-18 during that time, I think it’s appropriate.
Papin was distinctly average in Serie A. And Morientes was worse than average in EPL. Yes, they were great… In France. Moreientes in France : 28 games, 10 goals. In EPL : 41 games, 8 goals. But sheesh, y’know… He was so good in the CL… 33 goals in 89 games. 7th best scorer. Wow. Until you take it down to goals per game. 0.37, against, say, 0.74 for Ruud Van Nistelrooij, 0.52 for Roy Makaay, 0.52 for David Trézéguet, 0.55 for Inzaghi, 0.45 for Del Piero, 0.44 for Solskjaer, 0.45 for Sheringham… Even Yorke (0.39) has a better goalscoring average than Morientes. And Yorke was, alas, not that great a striker.
For the goalies, you must be joking. Gordon, you know, that kid that helped Scotland (yes, that fantastic, all-mighty nation of football) beat France (some tiny country) twice. Kasper Schmeichel put in excellent performances for City before Isaksson returned from injury. Incuding a win against Man Utd (you know, that team Lyon smashed twice this year). I distinctly feel like you should watch them a little more often. But the point remains : if L1 goalkeepers (like Bracigliano) are so great, why doesn’t anyone want to buy them? Why does Man Utd not buy a Carasso or a Landreau, but instead buy Van der Sar? Why do Arsenal buy Fabianski from some random polish club instead of Pélé? Why? They can’t be “ignorant” of the -fact- that L1 goalkeepers are divine compared to any other breed. Hell, some of the managers managed in France (Wenger, Fernandez, Perrin) before managing abroad, and with so many players leaving L1 for EPL/Liga/Serie A, you’d think they’d tell their coach if they felt that there was a great goalkeeper in their old club who was -that- much better than the current one. But no. They all shut up and pretend it isn’t so. Therefore, I doubt the premice that L1 keepers are better than EPL/Liga/Serie A goalkeepers. Look at Itandje, going to be second choice in Liverpool, whilst he used to be a starter at Lens. Benitez isn’t impressed with his level, and it’s unclear if he’ll even stay on as 2nd goalkeeper. L1 has good goalkeepers, but there’s no evidence to the EPL having worse goalkeepers. (Oh, and you’re the one saying I should watch more, and then you say that “calamity” being GK of the Year shows that english goalkeepers are bad? You should watch him play a little more often, then.)
But really, once more : if L1 is -that- good… Where are the trophies? There are none. Thus, it’s perhaps not absurd to think that the teams that win are better than those that lose. Count the C1 trophies in England and those in France. Repeat for C2 and C3. Guess who’s getting the performances on the pitch.
Posted from
France -
See, this is exactly what I love.
You talk about Yahioui out of your ass, and you don’t eve know the specifics.Yahiaoui had a nervous breakdown and tried to kill himself.
Your take? “Look at Yahiaoui (well, if you know him, that is, because you seem oblivious about what happens in french youth structures). He was perhaps better than Nasri in terms of pure skill. But OM were unable to cope with him, and he never signed a pro contract with them, preferring to go to Istres. And thus never managed to fulfill his talent.”
Perhaps you should learn a few details before talking about things you have no idea of.
Piqué was a dominant youngster playing for Barca’s academy. Saying he’s an Arsenal product is hilarious.
Morientes was always productive in a better league than the EPL. You know La Liga, right?
Tell me, when did Papin win his Ballon D’Or? Where did he play then? Right.
If these players are average to you, what are the EPL biggest scoring forwards (Adebayor and co)?
Crap?So because Gordon beat France twice, he’s the second coming of Yashin now? Wow!
Why does Arsenal buy crap in nets? That’s what everyone has wondered for years now! Weneger has never been a good coach when it comes to goalies and he’s always had shaky goalies for the last 7-8 years.
Itandje was seen as Lens’ third goalie by Guy Roux, which does say a lot.
So again, the best goalie in the EPL was voted as Calamity James.
If your memory can go back to some of the most MONSTRUOUS blunders made by pro goalies, SURELY you’ll understand how his nickname is linked to his blunders rather than his cowboy moustache.And you go back to european trophies without looking at my argument (no european culture) and at the budgets (after all, why look at this, right, it’s not as if big budget teams would win the CL every year).
Posted from
United States -
BTW, how did you like Reina’s “performance” today?
And about Yahiaoui, I still can’t believe you act like a pretentious ass and don’t even know what you’re talking about.
Lol, you need to work on your knowledge of L1 “youth structures” a whole lot before you try to use that argument to me.Posted from
United States -
This is so entertaining to me. Fellaz, this is the best comment back and forth i’ve seen in a long time.
Posted from
France -
You both suck! Bweahhhh
Posted from
United States -
I’m disappointed that I didn’t have the chance to be part of such a pretentious, concise argument :p just found this site it’s great.
However, the only thing I took offence to was the statement that La Liga is in any way superior to the EPL. Let’s analyse it…Financially? EPL. More talent on show? EPL. Current success in Europe? EPL. Fan Levels? EPL. Average attendances? EPL. Global branding? EPL. More chance for young players? EPL. Less of a gap between high-flyers and shite clubs? EPL. Faster, more effective, more pleasing, more entertaining, more passionate, more flowing, more tactically astute, more simply intriguing matches? EPL.
And hey, I’m just a brash and arrogant 15 Italian kid. Seriously, take Kanoute…he scaled the heights of mediocrity in England, then promptly left to set the world on fire in Spain…
What this has to do with French football I don’t know, but there we go.Posted from
United Kingdom -
Cesc: Welcome! Always glad to have a new reader.
I agree that the EPL is superior in certain points, like money, fan bases, and current European form. But I disagree on the others. First off, young players to have the chance to shine in Spain. Most Spanish clubs have very good youth development programs, and most incorporate their best ones into their first teams (Barca, Sevilla, Atletico, to name a few). The difference being you see more home grown talent in Spain than England, besides the usual South American imports, that is.
La Liga also has wayyy more parity than the EPL. You have the big four teams which consistently walk all over the relegation teams. There is currently a 50 point gap between 2nd and 19th place, compared to La Liga. which has a 30 point gap. Spanish giants have tough times against the small clubs on a seemingly weekly basis. And besides Real and Barca, you never know who else will make part of that top four. Simply put, La Liga’s bottom tiered clubs are better than their English counterparts.
And about this: “Faster, more effective, more pleasing, more entertaining, more passionate, more flowing, more tactically astute, more simply intriguing matches?”
Besides Arsenal and at times Manchester United, English teams are everything BUT free flowing, entertaining, tactically astute (long balls are not good tactics), or intriguing. Though I would say that English are more effective.
True, Kanoute is doing well in Spain but failed in England, but then you have guys like Woodgate, Beckham, Owen, and Anelka who failed in Spain but who lit up England. So it works both ways.
As for this not having to do with French football, in this blog, even off topic is on topic.
Posted from
United States -
Bottom line, EPL is only strong now because of foreign players and it’s not entertaining because of English players and coaches.
“Less of a gap between high-flyers and shite clubs? EPL”
Hahahaha, that’s classic. ‘Spose that’s why Betis and Sociedad have been in the Champions League recently and there’s been such a range of teams from England? Oh no, that’s right, it’s always the same 4!!
Posted from
Ireland
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